Y-DNA I2a was in SouthEastern Europe BEFORE SLAVS CAME in 7th century

[Robocop]

I had a discussion with @Rethel about this on other thread so I decided to open a thread for this and I will copy my post which I answered to him on other thread for opening post here. THE POINT IS: I2a was in South-Eastern Europe before SLAVS came here, no evidence against that.

So, everything Started with my question for @Rethel, and he agrees with me:

I have more serious question here for you, I know It's not thread for it, but never the less.[/B]

Answer me this without any "R1 group hates I2&I1 and vice versa" thinking, but honestly, do you honestly believe that Y-DNA haplogroup I2a1b (mine Y-DNA) came from SLAVS ONLY?

WTF I cannot believe I have to debate this always with some Serbians, and even Albanians, because Albanians are saying that I2a1b is for sure Slavic, because with that they wanna show their monopoly over SouthEastern Europe with E-V13 Y-DNA (their haplogroup, means haplogroup of their people).

And on the other hand you have Slavs who are saying exactly what Albanians are sayin (even though they hate each others), that I2a1b came to SouthEastern Europe WITH SLAVS from central and eastern Europe, I don't believe that, no way, and never will.

As I've just said to one Montenegrian guy, in 2017 & 2018 European ArcheoGenetic along with our University will conduct research on Necropolis in Dalmatia from 4th and 5th century, that Necropolis has 215 graves, all non-slavic, only 4 graves are OstroGothic.

And I am SURE that research will PROVE that those pre-slavic people of Dalmatia had I2a1b, which will DESTROY theory that I2a1b came here with Slavs.

Your opinion please (but again, please without that R1 hates I1,I2 and vice verca)?

P.S. Asking you this because you're Polish and I just had a debate about this with Montenegrian guy, so you are more than fit to answer this, what is your opinion.

@Rethel replied, so I replied again:

I belive, that it totaly doesn't came from Slavs, becasue Slavs are IE
but I2 is not, so it couldn't came from them. But could migrated with
Slavs. However, as Artek said, it could be, that if Scythes would slay
one more village, then balkanian I2 could not exist today. Becasue
bal;kanian I2 is very young, regardless it came with Slavs or not.

Trust me, you don't know half of what is going on with "conflict" between I2a1b ppl and E-V13, because you are too much focused on R1, so this has nothing to do with R1 ppl, just asked your opinion about this, as your neutral opinion.

Albanians (alllll of them) claim that I2a1b (and I2a in general) came with Slavs in 7th century, THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE MAN... impossible., go and ask Albanians see what they will tell you. Because their dominant haplogroup is E-V13 and because they have less than 10% of I2a1b their primary goal is to portrait I2a1b as SLAVIC Y-DNA (along with R1a), and that I2a ppl CAME WITH R1a as SLAVS, I swear to you this is their claims, if anyone of them is reading this they can confirm, and I repeat, I have nothin against them, this is just civilized debate if they want it.

True Serbs and Albanians are R1, so, why you bother about it?

No they are not, Serbian dominant Y-DNA is I2a (even though they have less of it than Croats), and Albanian dominant Y-DNA is E-V13.

Obviously they do not know what they are saying.
Firstly it is about one subclade, secondly, I2 was there
always, thirdly - they should have a problem with their
E1 and J2 insteed of croatian I2...

Well that's my point, nevermind how young is I2a1b, I2 was ALWAYS PRESENT HERE, but not according to Albanians, it came here with Slavs in 7th century, WTF!? All of I2 people came here in 7th century? If that's not madness I don't know what is.

Will they be checking Y?


They could have also more R1b.

Yes, in fact only Y-DNA, and sure, they will probably find R1b as well, but in this matter this is more about I2a1b and conflict against E-V13, because that would destroy many of Historical things as well, this has nothing to do with Balkan behaviour man but with a true SCIENTIFIC conflict, you wouldn't believe.

I2 was in Europe since before R1, so OBVIOUSLY had to be on the Balkans
too - whatever subclade it was. And becasue of that it can't be pure Slavic.
And btw, what a difference is, if I2a1b came in VIth century or was there earlier.
Now there is. Albanianness or Serbness of these idiots doesn;t depend on pre
Serbian and pre-Albanian hgs... I know, that Balkanians are idiots, but as much?
You should change your place of living, becasue you doesn;t fit there Live Balkans!

I totally agree that I2 was here before Slavs, means before 7th century, but go on and tell that to Albanians you will see their answer.

Also many Serbians are saying also that I2 came with Slavs even though they hate Albanians ROFL, jesus fuckin christ It's like they both hate each others but agrees about this, and I DISAGREE.

I2 Y-DNA WAS HERE BEFORE SLAVS.

I2 is pre-IE hg, no matter how many members had and when.

Serbianess, Albanianness or Montenegroness depends on
R1, so every argufy about I2 or E1 being more Albanian or
Serbian or whatever is an imbecilism.

I agree, but ask them...

In their opinion and all of Albanian scientists claim that ALL OF I2 people came here WITH SLAVS, with slavs. I cannot fucking believe that, even some Serbian scientists and ppl sayin the same thing, how the fuck could they ALL CAME here in 7th century? with USS ENTERPRISE from Star Trek?

Having in mind that Dalmatia is CENTER of I2 haplogroup, it goes here up to 70%.

Albanian main argument that I2 people came with Slavs here is that one scientist found I2a1b person FROM POLAND, from ancient times, wtf does that proves? NOTHING.

Now if this research proves on that Necropolis that I2a1b (I2) was here before Slavs (and I'm sure it will show that), before 7th century, all of their IDIOTIC MUMBO JUMBO is gone... gone with wind.

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NOW LET'S CONTINUE DISCUSSION HERE ON THIS THREAD.

[Nikomahos]

Basically the I haplo is Balkanic and mostly found among Croatians?

[Tschaikisten]

Y-DNA I2a was in Europe BEFORE IndoEuropeans

Edited
My opinion is that I2a1b came here with Slavs (R1a and N1a).
But, no one of us can not be sure before we see results of ArcheoGenetic researches from that locations.
Btw I would add that is definitely not proto-slavic, like R1a is.

[Robocop]

Basically the I haplo is Balkanic and mostly found among Croatians?

Yes, I2a Y-DNA haplogroup is highest in Croatia and Bosnia & Herzegovina, here is the map:



Here is the map of all I Y-DNA haplogroups (I2a, I1, I2c, I2b...):



I Y-DNA haplogroups are Mesolithic & Paleolithic European, means they were here before R1 (IndoEuropeans) came, but this is not thread about R1 but about conflict of opinions between I2a ppl and E-V13.

Here is the map of entire Europe with Y-DNA haplogroups:

[Nikomahos]

[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]

According to this map, Greece seems to be overwhemingly E-V13. Rethel gave me stats from eupedia that have R1 as the most dominant.

[Danaan]

I personally believe that the Slavs were mostly I2a but were in South Balkans before the 7th century. I know that would seem weird but I don't care if others will accept this view. R1 would have been predominately non-IE. (Uralic, Vasconic and Turkic).

[Robocop]

Edited
My opinion is that I2a1b came here with Slavs (R1a and N1a).
But, no one of us can not be sure before we see results of ArcheoGenetic researches from that locations.
Btw I would add that is definitely not proto-slavic, like R1a is.

But do you see how high percentage of I2a is in Dalmatia and overall from Croatia to Serbia? How can all those ppl came in 7th century with Slavs? I dont get that, I never saw such migration in History considering that period of History, never...

That would be like migrating with starships or somethin lol.

We need those results and we will know then.

I don't care how young I2a1b is, it was created out of I2a, and I2a people were here (this area of Europe) before R1a OR E-V13.

[cosmoo]

Everything said here is wrong. I2a1b is not native Balkan, it came either with Slavs (but it was Slavicized on north, not originally Slavic) or with east Germanic tribes.

1) Older clades of I2a1b (I2a1b "Disles" and "Isles") are found predominantly in NW Europe.
2) Transition clades between "Disles" and "Dinaric" were found in Germany and Poland.
3) Older clade of I2a1b "Dinaric", named "Dinaric North" (from which our "Dinaric South" descends), is found more in northern than in southern Slavic lands.
4) Ken Nordtvedt calculated estimated TMRCA of it at 2500 ybp, in present-day Poland.
5) All ancient I2a1b found belonged exclusively to northern and western European hunter-gatherers, not a single example being found in southeastern Europe:
-Hunter-gatherers from Luxembourg and several of them from Motala in Sweden, all but one are I2a1b: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/02/10/013433, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture13673.html
-Two hunter-gatherers from Swedish Pitted-Ware culture, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015...ne-age-sweden/
-One hunter-gatherer from northern France, I2a1b: https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-sn...-berry-au-bac/

Highest haplotype diversity of I2a1b "Dinaric" is in Poland (concentration and haplotype diversity are not the same thing), which suggests it came from there (haplogroups have highest diversity near place of origin). The very fact that older cousins of I2a1b Dinaric, Isles and Disles (Dinaric actually split from Disles), are found mostly in NW Europe, very clearly says that I2a1b Dinaric is NOT ancient Balkan haplogroup.

[Tschaikisten]

But do you see how high percentage of I2a is in Dalmatia and overall from Croatia to Serbia? How can all those ppl came in 7th century with Slavs? I dont get that, I never saw such migration in History considering that period of History, never...

That would be like migrating with starships or somethin lol.

Hm, I agree with that, also we will see for one months results of 200 tested Herzegovina Serbs, I predict 65% I2a1b. Thats one of the best arguments for pre-slavic I2a1b.
One of the best arguments for Slavic I2a1b in Herzegovina and Dalmatia generally, is that Slavs arrived there and chased autochthonic population to the south.

I don't care how young I2a1b is, it was created out of I2a, and I2a people were here before R1a OR E-V13.

Absolutely, I were surely been in Europe before R, E, J, N etc.

We need those results and we will know then.

Dat's it

[Ülev]

from Russian perspective

I2a

I1

I2a2


source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629