Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 31

Thread: Arguments Against the Existence of God

  1. #1
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default Arguments Against the Existence of God

    The logical problem of evil points out a contradiction in the traditional conceptions of the nature of God and the world.
    As Epicurus pointed out:

    "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

    There are many counter arguments to the problem of evil. Arguments that justify the existence of evil are known as theodicies, a term coined by Gottfried Leibniz. A theodicy can generally be divided into four categories, each typically rejecting one of the four premises used to make the argument. The argument is, after all, not an argument for the non-existence of God but an argument for the non-existence of God with all three of the characteristics of omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence in the presence of evil.

    Many counter arguments rely on wild and unsubstantiated speculation:

    "So how do theists respond to arguments like this? [The Argument from Evil] They say there is a reason for evil, but it is a mystery. Well, let me tell you this: I'm actually one hundred feet tall even though I only appear to be six feet tall. You ask me for proof of this. I have a simple answer: it's a mystery. Just accept my word for it on faith. And that's just the logic theists use in their discussions of evil. [1]"

    Most theodicies crumble in the face of easily prevented, extremely "evil" acts, such as the rape and murder of a child, or a gross atrocity like the holocaust, slavery or other genocides. Many theodicies have worse implications than the original problem.



    Closely related problems include the problem of suffering, the Kalam cosmological problem of evil, the problem of non-God objects and the evidential problem of evil.

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    The logical problem of evil is usually stated:
    Premise 1: Evil exists.
    Premise 2: God is omnipotent: he is capable of doing something about evil.
    Premise 3: God is omnibenevolent: he does not want evil to exist.
    Premise 4: God is omniscient: he must know about all evil in the world.
    Premise 5: From (2-4), a God with this attributes would prevent evil occurring
    Conclusion: From (5), evil exists ergo God does not exist

    However, this results in a contradiction because evil cannot both exist and not exist. Dropping any one of those four premises would resolve the contradiction, but dropping #1 would require us to fundamentally redefine evil in some way, and dropping the other three would undermine the Christian concept of God. Accepting all four premises would lead to irrational theism, which is belief that is contrary to evidence and reason.

    The argument makes two implicit assumptions about God:
    An omnibenevolent God attempts to eliminate evil as far as it can.
    An omnipotent God can eliminate evil.

    These two assumptions are most often the target of counter arguments.

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Evil is a test theodicy

    Evil is needed so that God can test people.

    "Earthly life is just a test. God has thrown us into this world full of evil and pointless suffering in order to find out what kind of beings we are. Without the pointless suffering, his test is not complete. If we pass, we go to heaven. If we fail, we go to hell."

    "The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving"
    — Surah 67:2

    If God is omniscient, then God already knows what humans will do in any test, rendering the exercise (and the pain caused by evil) pointless and unnecessary. The necessity of the test itself has not been established. God is just inflicting evil, in the form of a test, for no apparent reason.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Evil is an illusion

    We believe that evil exists because we view things like genocide as bad. We are simply wrong, all of these things are good.

    Which suggests that everything which has ever happened is objectively good: rape, the holocaust, slavery, genocide. In order defend this theodicy, a proponent would need to agree that any horrific thing you could mention is a good thing to do.

    Although not generally accepted by most theists, many philosophers consider evil to be subjective, a human construction or a meaningless concept (moral nihilism). In this case, the problem of evil has invalid axioms.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Divine morality differs from human morality

    As with "benevolence", "evil" can be redefined. What is "evil" for humans may not be evil for God. In fact, anything that God chooses to do can be construed as "good", which is the premise of divine command theory. Using this argument, "evil" can not exist in any definable terms when applied to God.

    The apologist treads dangerously close to moral relativism. We know from information in the Bible that moral rules have changed at the will of God. Is God, then, a moral relativist?
    "In general terms the word ‘good’ has a meaning that relates to human experience, whereas in Islamic theology ‘good’ as an attribute of God is primarily viewed as a unique attribute that can be appreciated but not fully comprehended due to his uniqueness and transcendental nature."

    If the answer is that God is following a moral plan, then the apologist opens himself up to the Euthyphro dilemma. If the answer is that God changes as he sees fit and anything that god declares as good is good, then what is the difference between being a relativist and following a relativist God?

    When an apologist tries to redefine the premises of "the problem of evil" he finds himself in a morass of relativism, but when he tries to work with the premises he finds himself unwittingly limiting the unlimited God of his religion.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    The argument from nonbelief and the argument from divine hiddenness are a related set of arguments against the existence of God having the following rough form:

    If God existed, this fact would be more obvious.
    God's existence is not, in fact, as obvious as we would expect, if he existed.
    Therefore, God does not exist.

    "If God wants us to do a thing he should make his wishes sufficiently clear. Sensible people will wait till he has done this before paying much attention to him."
    — Samuel Butler

    Drange's argument from non-belief

    1.God is omniscient.
    2.God is omnipotent.
    3.God wants everyone to believe in him.
    4.Since God is omniscient, he knows exactly what demonstration would convince any given person that he exists.
    5.Since God is omnipotent, he is capable of performing this demonstration.
    6.Since God wants everyone to believe in him, he wants to perform this demonstration.
    7.However, atheists manifestly exist.
    8.Therefore, the god described by the first three conditions does not exist.
    Last edited by Petros Agapetos; 11-29-2016 at 02:50 PM.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default Who Created God?

    When theists ask "Who created the universe? It must have been God", asking "Who created God?" is a way of turning the original question back on itself. This is the most concise answer to the first-cause argument. This leads to an infinite regress, known as Ad infinitum.

    Asking about God's creator is a way of drawing attention to the fact that inventing a god is not an explanation for the existence of the universe, or of unexplained features within the universe. On the contrary, it fails as an explanation because it does nothing more than push the question of origin up a level, and on this new level the same problem exists. Many theists also them use the special pleading fallacy to justify their beliefs.

    In a more general way, this is a template for the technique of turning theistic questions about the world around on the God that they use to explain it. It can also be used as a response to arguments such as:

    The natural-law argument
    ("If the order of natural laws can only be explained by a creator, then what explains the order of the creator?")

    Irreducible complexity ("If complexity can only be explained by an intelligent designer, then how do you explain the complexity of the designer?")

    Morality, as in the Euthyphro dilemma ("If God is needed to tell us what is right and wrong, then on what basis does God decide what is right and wrong?")

    Cosmological argument ("If the universe had to have God as a cause, what caused God?")

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Last Online
    Today @ 01:19 AM
    Location
    North africa
    Meta-Ethnicity
    TurtleSaur
    Ethnicity
    alien
    Ancestry
    the aliens that populated alantis
    Country
    Spain
    Region
    Amazigh
    Hero
    The prophet revealman
    Religion
    Infedil
    Age
    1
    Gender
    Posts
    4,277
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 2,121/351
    Given: 3,150/249

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Agapetos View Post
    Evil is a test theodicy

    Evil is needed so that God can test people.

    "Earthly life is just a test. God has thrown us into this world full of evil and pointless suffering in order to find out what kind of beings we are. Without the pointless suffering, his test is not complete. If we pass, we go to heaven. If we fail, we go to hell."

    "The One Who created death and life, so that He may put you to test, to find out which of you is best in deeds: He is the all-Almighty, the all-Forgiving"
    — Surah 67:2

    If God is omniscient, then God already knows what humans will do in any test, rendering the exercise (and the pain caused by evil) pointless and unnecessary. The necessity of the test itself has not been established. God is just inflicting evil, in the form of a test, for no apparent reason.
    When god gave Joab plague. Wasnt that good? God will give you cancer and he loves you.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    Today @ 06:48 AM
    Location
    Alberta, Canada
    Meta-Ethnicity
    East Caucasian
    Ethnicity
    Armenian
    Country
    Canada
    Region
    Alberta
    Taxonomy
    East Alpine - East Med
    Politics
    Secular Liberal, Progressive Leftist
    Hero
    Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, Robert Spencer, Bernie Sanders, Atheism-is-Unstoppable
    Religion
    Atheist
    Gender
    Posts
    3,542
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 906/372
    Given: 685/28

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default The No-Reason Argument

    "The "No Reason" argument states that a perfect god would have no desire to create the universe since the very state of perfection carries with it the implication that one has everything one needs or wants. Thus, the Christian god is the "perfect" victim of this argument."

    Drange formed the argument like this

    1. If God exists, then he is perfect.
    2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
    3. A perfect being can have no needs or wants.
    4. If any being created the universe, then he must have had some need or want.
    5. Therefore, it is impossible for a perfect being to be the creator of the universe (from 3 and 4).
    6. Hence, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5).

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Arguments for the Existence of God
    By Petros Agapetos in forum Philosophy
    Replies: 111
    Last Post: 12-17-2016, 12:05 AM
  2. Which TA arguments are the worst?
    By Szegedist in forum Off-topic
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 11-09-2016, 12:07 AM
  3. arguments for "if god exists he must be evil"
    By revealman in forum Atheism
    Replies: 76
    Last Post: 10-04-2016, 09:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •