"Proto-English" theory on Newsnight

[Æscwyn]

Thought this might be of interest to you all.

[YOUTUBE=fwXOr47EJ1E]Was a Germanic language spoken in Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxon invasion?[/YOUTUBE]

[Raikaswinþs]

many scholars argue that Britain is in essence a continuation of Normandy. The Anglo-Norman language was eventually absorbed into the English language of their subjects and influenced it, helping the development of Middle English which would gain much vocabulary of French origin. At the same time, this romance dialect was itself influenced by Germanic Viking speech. That might explain some of the Germanic, non-Anglosaxon names and toponyms found across the Atlantic Isles

[Æscwyn]

That might explain some of the Germanic, non-Anglosaxon names and toponyms found across the Atlantic Isles

Correct in some cases, but the theory I mentioned is referring to the presence of a Germanic language in the British Isles before the Roman period and a long time before Anglo-Saxon settlement and the later Norman conquest. The examples of place names used in the video are documented as existing before the Norman Conquest, I believe, and therefore were not names given by Norman landowners.

[Liffrea]

In short bar the probability that there were Germanic settlers in Roman Britain as mercenaries and probable Frisian traders the idea that some form of proto-English was spoken pre-AS migrations is unproven and highly unlikely. In fact it’s bloody laughable.

English before the Anglo-Saxons……..I think not.

We also have the usual hyped up theories based on genetics, folks there are no “Celtic” or “Germanic” genes, Celtic and Germanic only have relevance when we are looking at linguistic groups and archaeological cultures, not genes. R1b isn’t “Celtic” it is also found in half of Danish males and some 30% of Norwegians, neither country had a Celtic language or culture. One possible use of genetics is population studies but we are far from any comprehensive view of genetic structure of whole populations.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Averrhoës
many scholars argue that Britain is in essence a continuation of Normandy.

I can’t say I’ve ever read that one before. I’ve read plenty who claim the Normans started the ball rolling towards the United Kingdom.

The Anglo-Norman language was eventually absorbed into the English language of their subjects and influenced it, helping the development of Middle English which would gain much vocabulary of French origin. At the same time, this romance dialect was itself influenced by Germanic Viking speech. That might explain some of the Germanic, non-Anglosaxon names and toponyms found across the Atlantic Isles

Old English was already changing pre-9th century as something of a linguistic isolate with Frisian. The Danish settlements hastened certain changes, the loss of much of the inflexion being primary among them. Most Modern English dialects are Old English in origin, bar much of eastern England where the Scandinavian impact was greater. The impact of Welsh on English is an ongoing debate; there is some evidence of a more substantial influence than traditionally supposed, though certainly only a minor one when compared to the influence of Old Norse and Norman-French.

[Osweo]

What a load of drivel.

To suppose that placenames would survive in a recognisable Germanic form for 500 years in predominantly Celtic Britain, and then another 500 until the Saxons show up, is preposterous. That 'archaeologist' is a fucking imbecile.

[Curtis24]

If its so obviously false, why does it persist? Does proving that English did not come from Anglo-Saxons, help further some modern day person's political agenda?

[Osweo]

If its so obviously false, why does it persist? Does proving that English did not come from Anglo-Saxons, help further some modern day person's political agenda?

Interesting question. Perhaps it's just the idea to 'flood the market' with so much inane drivel and clamour, that the end result is a confused populace with little certainty as to their true origins.

Perhaps the general journalism love of 'controversy' is most important, though, whereby any aberation is seized upon to milk for 'stories' and 'sensation'.

[Wyn]

Perhaps the general journalism love of 'controversy' is most important, though, whereby any aberation is seized upon to milk for 'stories' and 'sensation'.

There's that. But for some, it probably makes them feel more rooted. The idea that Germanics didn't just turn up c. 5th century.

[Wulfhere]

Wherever the Romans went (in Western Europe, at any rate) they took their language with them. Welsh is so full of Latin-derived words that it's probably only for political reasons that it's not classified as a Romance language. Old English, on the other hand, had about six, not counting place names. How could it possibly have escaped Latin influence? By not being here.