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Thread: Viking DNA Results In Normandy

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    Default Viking DNA Results In Normandy



    Viking DNA Results In Normandy,

    May 18, 2016

    A genetic study has determined that some of todays Normans are probably descendants of the Vikings.

    Do the Normans really have Vikings ancestors?

    A lot of places in Normandy have names of Viking origin including the local people. A genetic study conducted in the Cotentin region wanted to determine the biological portion of this Scandinavian heritage. Here are the first results.

    ANCESTORS. “Men of the North”, such is the literal meaning of the word “Norman”. And the term used to describe the inhabitants of Normandy and their descendants. It was once used to talk about the Vikings, the Scandinavian people who landed on the French coast of the English Channel at the end of the first millennium AD.

    Can the Normans today still boast of being the direct descendants of those dreaded Nordic warriors of the Middle Ages? “It could be or not”, The first results of the genetic study were announced Thursday, April 21, 2016. It was a collaboration between British and French researchers, known as the “Viking DNA Project” aims to determine if the Normans contain a “signature” left by the Vikings. Now, this signature is not always clear.

    The Viking DNA Signature

    Researchers are interested in Normandy because it is the only sustainable political foundation established by the Vikings on the mainland. Scientists have also focused their study on the population of the Cotentin peninsula because the density of places and people whose names are of Scandinavian origin is particularly strong. “We were interested in men with surnames with Scandinavian-sounding that could reflect this legacy: names such as Anquetil, Dutot, Equilbec, Gonfray, Ingouf, Lanfry, Osouf, Osmont, Quetel, Tougis, Tostain, Raoult and their many variations, explains Richard Jones of the University of Leicester. We have also retained only people whose four grandparents were born and lived within 50 km of their current home. This stable residence is often indicative of a longer history of the family in one area.” In the end, the researchers selected according to these criteria, 89 men. They were asked to complete a genealogical questionnaire and submit to a saliva test. The scientists then looked for a “Viking signature” on the Y chromosome (present only in males and passed from father to son) extracted from cells in saliva. Specifically, they were interested in genetic variations present on this chromosome.

    “These changes can be grouped according to several criteria. This allows to classify an individual in a ‘haplogroup’ particular depending on the type of detected changes in their DNA,” said British historian.

    Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b, the type of Y chromosome variations most common in Northern and Western Europe. Its origin, still unclear, is found on the side of shepherds from the plains north of the Black Sea who migrated to the West 4,000 years ago. There can’t, therefore, be a typical Viking signature. But without totally excluding it either: according to experts, this genetic variation could mean an indirect link with the Vikings. However, haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study, suggests more clearly a possible Viking ancestry (more direct this time).

    These variations are indeed very present among the Scandinavians (over 45% of the population belongs to this genetic group in some areas). But a Germanic origin is also possible. In fact, “when we look at fingerprints’ underlying haplogroup I1, some Norman Y chromosomes show an affinity with the Germanic, while others show an affinity with the Scandinavians,” said Richard Jones. Still, “it’s very tempting to consider l1 as a mark left by the Vikings in Normandy because it is present in approximately the same proportions as those observed in other populations with known Viking history,” the searcher. Finally, 2 participants presented a haplogroup often regarded as typical Nordic: R1a. The other haplogroups found among the Normans are a priori unrelated to the Vikings. They are of other origins witnesses, particularly around the Mediterranean (including Sicily and southern Italy, the land that belonged to the Norman empire) and extending further eastward from the Middle East and Eastern Europe (going back perhaps to the Crusades).

    These results are however not definitive, but they already reflect a high genetic diversity within the population of Cotentin. The researchers intend to refine their analysis of haplogroups in order to more clearly identify the geographic origins of each.

    They also want to study another type of genetic material: mitochondrial DNA (inherited this time by the mother to her children), even more, complex to decipher. Finally, future methods of ancient DNA samples may enable to harvest DNA on Viking skulls: it will then be sufficient to compare this authentic DNA to that of the Normans to see if they are related, rather than attempting to trace the genetic trees following the traces of a possible Viking signature. “Knowledge of the genetic history of Normandy is still in its infancy!” Enthuses Richard Jones.

    * Groupware matter between the University of Leicester (UK) and the Centre for Archaeological Research and Historical Ancient and Medieval UMR 6273 (CNRS / UCBN), University of Caen Lower Normandy (France).

    Source :

    -http://www.normandescendants.org/viking-dna-results-normandy/

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    Acording to an older paper on the research they also found some Balkanic, Georgian and Armenian genetic markers among the samples.

    Source : http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-1...mandie_198703/

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    Weren't Vikings just a small minority in Normandy? That being the reason why they assimilated to French civilization. They are known to have intermarried from the begining with the natives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreigner View Post
    Weren't Vikings just a small minority in Normandy? That being the reason why they assimilated to French civilization. They are known to have intermarried from the begining with the natives.
    No they were not a minority acording to the fact they founded the country in 911, vikings raids started during the 8th century but little by little they established there (called Neustria before). When the country was founded (and named "Normandy" meaning "Northmen country") they were already there and then more and more come to established in several big areas of Normandy.

    A lot of them were farmers, they build great farms where they ruled population around and established their family. They brought also women here. These were new lands to farm, they developped good agriculture and were good rulers of their own places. They named the places were they established with the name of the family's father former, this is still nowadays, places (towns, villages, etc) called from the name of the former viking chief.

    Others were great sailors and fishermen, they established a lot along the coast. They also named places with their names but above all they introduced a lot of norse terms for fishing and sea lexical, Norman language was developing.

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    So you think French Normans are of majority Scandinavian ancestry?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Foreigner View Post
    So you think French Normans are of majority Scandinavian ancestry?
    Today we are 3,4 millions living in Normandy and I don't think so because pure native are less and less. People move to other regions in France for their studies or work, this is how french centralization works... Then people meet other french or other nationalities and they have babies with them. A lot of Normans today are half Norman / half something.

    But if you take the direct line ancestry for people like these samples for the study, you find a majority having scandinavian or germanic ancestry yes.

    Before vikings came in Normandy the local population and around was mainly frankish, then Germanic, that's why you find a lot of germanic genetic markers in Normandy. Descendants of vikings in Normandy established and breed but we can imagine later their descendants also breed with frankish descendants there.

    EDIT : acording to wikipedia "They became the Normans – a Norman-speaking mixture of Scandinavians, Hiberno-Norse, Orcadians, Anglo-Danish, Saxons and indigenous Franks and Celts."

    BEFORE vikings came :



    WHEN vikings came and established :





    AFTER vikings came, long lasting estabishment :



    Normandy TODAY (but the number is wrong, we're 3,4 millions) :



    Source :

    -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neustria
    -http://www.patrimoine-normand.com/index-fiche-32349.html
    Last edited by Ilma; 12-04-2016 at 12:53 PM.

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    Nice. Greatest territory of France

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    Also, are you able to post the nations which live around the Black Sea?

    e.g How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Governor View Post
    Also, are you able to post the nations which live around the Black Sea?

    e.g How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?
    Sorry I'm not, I found the results thanks to french and norman medias

    Do you know if such studies have been made for the countries you quote ?

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    Unfortunately there is nothing about subclades (sub-branches of haplogroups) in that study.

    Saying that someone is - for example - R1b is a very "low resolution" result.

    They should break it down into subclades. Like I did with R1b in Poland here:

    http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4103222

    Why do they stop at this instead of figuring out the Terminal SNPs as well ???

    I have this problem with my Y-DNA because I have four matches based on 37 STRs - and two of them are members of the Chisholm Clan from Scotland. But sadly, they did not test their Terminal SNPs, so I don't know if they are L617 like me or not. If they are not L617, then these are false matches (because SNPs are more reliable than STRs). All L617 men share a common direct paternal ancestor 4300 years ago, and many of L617 share an ancestor much earlier (e.g. 1000 years ago). But if someone is not L617 then they do not share a common direct paternal ancestor with me during the last 4300 years, even if we have similar STRs.

    My matches (based on 37 STRs, these are my only Y-DNA matches among customers of FTDNA):



    ^ They are members of Chisholm Clan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm#History

    Origins:

    According to a 19th-century historian, Alexander Mackenzie, the Clan Chisholm is of Norman and Saxon origin.[2]

    Tradition stating that the Chisholms were a Norman family who arrived in England after the Norman conquest of 1066.[2] The original Norman name being De Chese to which the Saxon term "Holme" was added upon the marriage of a Norman ancestor to a Saxon heiress.[2] According to the Collins Scottish Clan & Family Encyclopedia the Chishom name was known in the Scottish Borders since the reign of Alexander III of Scotland.[3] In early records the name is written as "de Cheseholme", eventually later becoming Chisholm.[2] In Scotland the earliest recorded person of the family is on the Ragman Rolls as "Richard de Chisholm del Counte de Rokesburgh", referring to the Clan Chisholm's seat in Roxburghshire.[2] One of the earliest recorded members of the family was John de Chesehelme, who in 1254 was mentioned in a bull of Pope Alexander IV.[3]
    I guess I need to send e-mails to these guys and convince them to order R1b SNP Packs.

    To see if they are also DF27>L617, or some other subclade (terminal SNP):

    Last edited by Peterski; 12-04-2016 at 01:14 PM.

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