Viking DNA Results In Normandy

[Ilma]

Unfortunately there is nothing about subclades (sub-branches of haplogroups) in that study.

Saying that someone is - for example - R1b is a very "low resolution" result.

They should break it down into subclades. Like I did with R1b in Poland here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4103222

Why do they stop at this instead of figuring out the Terminal SNPs as well ???

I have this problem with my Y-DNA because I have four matches based on 37 STRs - and two of them are members of the Chisholm Clan from Scotland. But sadly, they did not test their Terminal SNPs, so I don't know if they are L617 like me or not. If they are not L617 then it means that these are false matches (because SNPs are more reliable than STRs).

Chisholm Clan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Chisholm#History

Yes I agree with you, actually I'm looking for more precised results but they're still working on it I guess.

BTW they were not able to communicate the results to each person because that is forbidden in France and there was a polemical discussion about it. They are afraid of Normans would feel "viking / scandinavian pride" if they tell more. Welcome to the great french Republic.

I've translated it this morning but forum was down and all has been lost

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-1...mandie_198703/

[Aëlwenn]

Yes I agree with you, actually I'm looking for more precised results but they're still working on it I guess.

BTW they were not able to communicate the results to each person because that is forbidden in France and there was a polemical discussion about it. They are afraid of Normans would feel "viking / scandinavian pride" if they tell more. Welcome to the great french Republic.

I've translated it this morning but forum was down and all has been lost

http://www.normandie-actu.fr/apres-1...mandie_198703/

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

[Governor]

Sorry I'm not, I found the results thanks to french and norman medias

Do you know if such studies have been made for the countries you quote ?

I've found this, could be interesting for you and others.

Source: http://www.davidkfaux.org/files/Will...NAHeritage.pdf

It's saying about the Norman Vikings with R1a.

[Peterski]

Sir Humphfrey de Ogle (lived ca. 1055-1125) was probably R1b-DF27>L617.

And Baron Robert de Tyndall (born in 1120) was also probably R1b-DF27>L617.

This is based on Y-DNA of modern people who claim descent from those two.

It's saying about the Norman Vikings with R1a.

Typically Scandinavian branches are R1a-Z284 and also (less common) R1a-L664.

Edmund Drake (born in 1480) was R1a-L664. And his descendant - Francis Drake:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Drake

[Peterski]

How much Viking Dna do Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Georgians and Turks have?

It would be hard to tell apart Viking DNA from DNA of groups which migrated from Scandinavia (or Northern Europe) long before the Vikings. For example I1-M253 was long considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in ancient DNA of Anglo-Saxons. R1b-U106 is also often considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in Wielbark culture (Ancient Goths) in Iron Age Poland, long before the Viking Age.

The truth is that there is no any easily distinguishable Viking-specific DNA. They were not a "race". Perhaps you can tell if some DNA marker is Scandinavian. But Scandinavian is not necessarily Viking.

[Ilma]

It would be hard to tell apart Viking DNA from DNA of groups which migrated from Scandinavia (or Northern Europe) long before the Vikings. For example I1-M253 was long considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in ancient DNA of Anglo-Saxons. R1b-U106 is also often considered to be a Viking marker, but it was found also in Wielbark culture (Ancient Goths) in Iron Age Poland, long before the Viking Age.

The truth is that there is no any easily distinguishable Viking-specific DNA. They were not a "race". Perhaps you can tell if some DNA marker is Scandinavian. But Scandinavian is not necessarily Viking.

Yes I guess they were mainly considering the density of haplogroups they found to know if some were Scandinavian or not at all.

[Rethel]

Results? Of the 89 men who participated in the study, the vast majority (52) represented haplogroup R1b,

haplogroup I1, found in 11 of the Normans of the study,

Who want to argue yet, that I1 is Viking hg?

Acording to an older paper on the research they also found some Balkanic, Georgian and Armenian genetic markers among the samples.

Who want to yet argue, that Vikings were a "nation"...

[Neon Knight]

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

Civic nationalism

[Mingle]

Republic founded by artificial identity ( French, everyone born here could be French as pure ethnic one even black people).
So they need to destroy any regional diversity.

Do many French people take pride in their regional identity?

[Peterski]

I don't know what is Petalpusher's ancestry (from which region of France are his ancestors?), but I compared his results in Eurogenes K15 calculator to results of a guy from Normandy (who says that he is fully Normand). This Normand guy's Y-DNA haplogroup is I1-L813>Y20861 which looks Scandinavian.

TMRCA - time of the most recent common ancestor - of this I1-Y20861 haplogroup was ca. 2000 years ago. And modern descendants of that common ancestor live e.g. in Sweden, France and Finland:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y20861/

So I must say that this Y-DNA lineage most probably came to Normandy with the Vikings.

As for autosomal DNA:

I also added my own results and ancient DNA results of one Swedish guy (sample called RISE174), who lived around years 427-611 AD, so not such a long time before the beginning of the Viking Age.

Based on this data it seems to me that the guy from Normandy is of mixed Celto-Germanic (Celtic and Scandinavian) descent. Compared to Petalpusher, the Norman guy is more Northern European:

Admixture (%)	Litvin	RISE174 (Sweden 427-611 AD)	Petalpusher	Normand
North Sea	22,24	40,24	30,17	32,91
Atlantic	19,65	31,48	26,53	31,65
Baltic	25,41	16,78	8,26	7,98
East Euro	18,22	10,88	7,23	7,6
West Med	5,35	0,28	19,41	12,56
West Asian	6,36	0	4,76	2,49
East Med	2,70	0	3,64	2,92
Red Sea	0,0	0,0	0,0	0,79
Amerindian	0,0	0,34	0,0	0,41

And here a PCA graph based on those results - as you can see, compared to Petalpusher the Normand guy is more shifted towards "North Sea" admixture, and also slightly more towards "Atlantic" admixture. On the other hand, he plots further away than Petalpusher from "West Med" and "East Med" admixtures:

For comparison, some more of modern people:

N. Dutch = North Dutch guy
Swede-Finn = mixed ancestry guy
Swede = ethnic Swedish guy

http://i.imgur.com/kTJeGsR.png



Oracle results for the Normand guy:

Single Population Sharing (note that South Dutch is 3rd, before French):

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_English 5.25
2 Southeast_English 5.88
3 South_Dutch 6.53
4 Irish 7.53
5 West_Scottish 8.04
6 French 8.34
7 Orcadian 9.27
8 North_German 9.52
9 Danish 9.59
10 North_Dutch 9.87
11 West_German 10.69
12 Spanish_Cataluna 13.36
13 Norwegian 13.47
14 West_Norwegian 14.12
15 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 14.61
16 Swedish 14.84
17 Spanish_Galicia 14.85
18 East_German 14.88
19 Spanish_Cantabria 15.21
20 Portuguese 15.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing (I think that #13 looks interesting):

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.3% Southeast_English + 21.7% French_Basque @ 1.45
2 68.1% West_Scottish + 31.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.83
3 66% West_Scottish + 34% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.1
4 81% Southwest_English + 19% French_Basque @ 2.1
5 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% Southwest_French @ 2.24
6 68.1% North_Dutch + 31.9% French_Basque @ 2.24
7 68.8% Danish + 31.2% French_Basque @ 2.28
8 69.9% Irish + 30.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.28
9 72.7% West_Scottish + 27.3% French_Basque @ 2.3
10 68.2% West_Scottish + 31.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.3
11 75.5% Southeast_English + 24.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.31
12 63.2% Orcadian + 36.8% Southwest_French @ 2.33
13 59.6% West_Norwegian + 40.4% French_Basque @ 2.35
14 67.8% Irish + 32.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.42
15 65.1% Orcadian + 34.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.42
16 69.6% Orcadian + 30.4% French_Basque @ 2.44
17 74.4% Southeast_English + 25.6% Southwest_French @ 2.53
18 68.4% West_Scottish + 31.6% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.56
19 73.9% Southeast_English + 26.1% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.57
20 74.4% Irish + 25.6% French_Basque @ 2.63

=========================

Here are Eurogenes K15 results of some other ancient samples (apart from RISE174):

1) Ancient Germanic Scandinavian samples:

http://i.imgur.com/eD9Uy0g.png

Gedmatch / Sample / Dating / Country / Number of SNPs

RISE94 lived ca. 2621-2472 BC in Sweden
RISE61 lived ca. 2650-2300 BC in Denmark
RISE98 lived ca. 2275-2032 BC in Sweden
RISE71 lived ca. 2196-2023 BC in Denmark
RISE97 lived ca. 2025-1885 BC in Sweden

RISE174 lived ca. 427-611 AD in Sweden



2) Ancient British and Central European Celts:

(Hinxton-4 = British, Rathlin-1 = Irish, the rest = Central European Unetice culture):