Viking DNA Results In Normandy

[Robocop]

Not only that Normans made impact on Normandy in terms of people and genetic make up, but they made impact on British and Irish island as well , FROM NORMANDY, now you can only imagine what kind of impact is on Normandy today.

Talking about UK from point of invasion from Normandy:

In 1066, Duke William II of Normandy conquered England killing King Harold II at the Battle of Hastings. The invading Normans and their descendants replaced the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling class of England. The Anglo-Normans continued their expansion to Scotland (from 1072), Ireland (from 1169) and Wales (from the late 1200's). Thanks to their status and wealth, Norman noblemen left a greater number of offspring than the commoners, and as a result managed to leave a noticeable genetic impact.

For example, Norman surnames now make up 10% of all modern Irish surnames and even exceed 30% of all patronyms in Counties Wexford and Waterford, where the Normans first settled in the 12th century. Genetic genealogy tests have confirmed that Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in the region are usually linked to Norman surnames (e.g. I1 for Powers, R1b-U106 for Roche and Sinclair). The reverse is not always true though, as some Irishmen took Norman names for social reasons.

In Scotland, the Nomans founded several clans, known as the Scoto-Norman clans (Bruce, Comyn, Crawford, Fraser, Grant, Hall, Hay, Hunter, Innes, Jardine, Kerr, Menzies, Montgomery, Murray, Ramsay, Sinclair, Stewart, Sutherland), many of which would rise to the Scottish peerage, and some even provide future kings (Robert the Bruce, House of Stewart).

And about Normandy itself, there is no doubt today Normandy is in fact a Viking colony/descendants in France, everythin started ofcourse In the early 10th century, a Viking contingent made up of Danes and Norwegians, Norse–Gaels and Anglo-Danes sailed up the Seine River and laid siege on Paris. In exchange for not sacking the city, the King of France granted them land in northwest France if Rollo, the leader of the Norsemen accepted to become his vassal. This was born the Duchy of Normandy. The Norsemen adopted Christianity and the local Gallo-Romance language, from which evolved Anglo-Norman. They mixed extensively with the local French population and even accepted Frenchmen as part of their nobility.

[Fantomas]

First thing : there was no Normandy at this moment, only Norsemen raiding overthere.

Second thing : "Norman defeat" you mean Norsemen defeat, Norsemen defeat of exactly the Battle of Chartres in August 911 far southern than Normandy (Neustria at the moment) and far from Paris.

Norsemen were raiding farther to see what they can get overthere, they were already present in Neustria successfully. They took risks to go farther but that was not necessary and they still were organised in military camps in Neustria were no one gave a fuck about them overthere. Locals were not rebellious against them, they were military stronger than them.

The treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte was a strategic accord and alliance for the Frankish king to have strong allies and stop them before they raid again AGAINST Paris.Chartres, Battle of Chartres :

No, when i'm talking about Norse defeats and genocide i mean not just battle of Chartres but series of wars between 911 and 920's. Read primary sources, not just Wiki or viking.no

They were both winners to sign this treaty.

It doesn't matter who was vassal of French power there at that period of time if not any Norsman so someone else. So the "winner" were just one: Rollo's dinasty, they were able to survive and got right to stay in France, provided total accimilation.

Third thing : celtic tribes ? .

That's contemporary's historians words, not mine. From the other side Norman identity that you're tryin to propose here was not still invented at that time, so we should be historically accurate

Anglo-Saxon chronicles 1066


There was slain king
Harold, and Leofwin the earl, his brother, and Girth the
earl, his brother, and many good men ; and the Frenchmen
had possession of the place of carnage, all as God granted
them for the people's sins

[Rethel]

"french" that means actually nothing.

First time I have to stand on defend the term french

French means: my oldest known ancestor was from frogeatersland

Since genetic era began, it means: R1 who's the oldest
known ancestor was from this what we called France.

I doubt if someone can traced unbrokenly himself to Gauls,
Franks, Romans... maybe to Normans can, few to Franks...

[Ilma]

Not only that Normans made impact on Normandy in terms of people and genetic make up, but they made impact on British and Irish island as well , FROM NORMANDY, now you can only imagine what kind of impact is on Normandy today.

Talking about UK from point of invasion from Normandy:

In 1066, Duke William II of Normandy conquered England killing King Harold II at the Battle of Hastings. The invading Normans and their descendants replaced the Anglo-Saxons as the ruling class of England. The Anglo-Normans continued their expansion to Scotland (from 1072), Ireland (from 1169) and Wales (from the late 1200's). Thanks to their status and wealth, Norman noblemen left a greater number of offspring than the commoners, and as a result managed to leave a noticeable genetic impact.

For example, Norman surnames now make up 10% of all modern Irish surnames and even exceed 30% of all patronyms in Counties Wexford and Waterford, where the Normans first settled in the 12th century. Genetic genealogy tests have confirmed that Germanic Y-DNA haplogroups in the region are usually linked to Norman surnames (e.g. I1 for Powers, R1b-U106 for Roche and Sinclair). The reverse is not always true though, as some Irishmen took Norman names for social reasons.

In Scotland, the Nomans founded several clans, known as the Scoto-Norman clans (Bruce, Comyn, Crawford, Fraser, Grant, Hall, Hay, Hunter, Innes, Jardine, Kerr, Menzies, Montgomery, Murray, Ramsay, Sinclair, Stewart, Sutherland), many of which would rise to the Scottish peerage, and some even provide future kings (Robert the Bruce, House of Stewart).

And about Normandy itself, there is no doubt today Normandy is in fact a Viking colony/descendants in France, everythin started ofcourse In the early 10th century, a Viking contingent made up of Danes and Norwegians, Norse–Gaels and Anglo-Danes sailed up the Seine River and laid siege on Paris. In exchange for not sacking the city, the King of France granted them land in northwest France if Rollo, the leader of the Norsemen accepted to become his vassal. This was born the Duchy of Normandy. The Norsemen adopted Christianity and the local Gallo-Romance language, from which evolved Anglo-Norman. They mixed extensively with the local French population and even accepted Frenchmen as part of their nobility.

Thanks a lot for that quality post and for talking about other lands as well to consider the "viking" imput in terms of genetics

About Normandy I can add since the Duchy was legit and ruled by Norsemen chiefs and farmers, they were actually really independant from Frankish Kingdom.

The rulers were called Dukes in french but actually they were called Jarl overthere and considered as powerful as Princes.

They signed to adopt christianity but truth is they still behaved as pagans for 2 or 3 generations. I mean they kept their customs, the "more danico" (danish marriage) allowing them to have two wives (one legit by christian marriage and having children for strategic alliance, second one "frilla" as real lover chosen wife and effetive concubine), kept their law system, instauring the "Thing" there, Dukes were actually considered and called "Jarl" of Normandy etc.

Lol their way to chose a frilla, lover/second wife, was to capture her, omg... and no marry her by christian marriage at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_danico

Ironically Rollo (Hrólfr) the first Jarl of Normandy and the most pagan of all even if baptised is burried in my current town in the Cathedral. When I come to visit him I smile wondering "what would you think about being trapped forever in this beautiful catholic Cathedral, dear Rollo ?"

Acording to Adémar de Chabanne (medieval monk and writer, 989-1034) Rollo made blòt (human sacrifices) for the Gods as a Jarl before to die.

He never considered Charles the Simple as more powerful than him, the day they signed the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte, Charles the Simple asked him to kiss his feet. Lol, he said no way, never, so he asked one of his men to do instead of him. The norseman took up the foot of Charles the Simple so high he fell down and all norsemen laughed at the "poor fallen King", obviously lol.

After the Treaty another anecdote : two knights of the Frankish Kingdom came to Rouen in order to rate if Gisela the daughter of the King was well treated and if Rollo was ruling corretly, good christian, etc lol, he learnt they were walking around without his autorisation to enter Normandy and ordered to cut off their head in the public place.

To talk about William the Conqueror again, he was actually the FIRST one of his dynasty (descendant from Rollo) to STOP this pagan way of living. He totally adopted Christianism and was very good Christian. He fell in love with Mathilda (from Flanders) but she was too close cousin to be allowed to marry him. So, he built for the Pope great churches and abbeys to ask her hand and be allowed to marry her as a Christian. He did and the Pope allowed them to marry. He had no second wife, only her. He suffered from the more danico actually himself because he was the son of the previous Duke but son of the lover spouse (frilla), not the christian wife. They were considered as legit spouses by Norman laws but he was in troubles as a christian to prove he was legit Duke. I guess this is why he decided to stop himself this more danico and was so faithful.

About paganism you find today in Normandy a lot of places, towns etc called with a reference to Norse Gods : "Auzouville" from "Asulfr" : the Wolf of Ases (Heathen Gods). Also patronymic names you still find nowadays such as "Turquetil" from "Thorketill" : Thor's Helmet.

[Tschaikisten]

Nice thread.
About Normans in Balkans (espesially among the Serbs).
There is like a 9,95% of I haplogroup among the Serbs for now (Drobnjak tribe - I1 P109, Macure tribe I1 Z63, and few tested people which belongs to other branches of I haplogroup).
I1 P109 is going to be like a 90% of Serbian I.
I1 P109 is also called ''Adriatic Norman'', because it arrived here by Norman invasion in Balkans.
According to some calculations, like 400,000 of Serbs are I1 P109.
This is how it arrives here.
Clossest Serbian P109 matches are from Sicily and Belarus.

Highest % of I and P109 generally are in southwestern Serbia/southeastern Bosnia/Northwestern Montenegro (25% from Prijepolje are tested to it), and it's connected with Drobnjak clan migrations(from their area in Montenegro).
This map shows % of I tested people in Serbian DNA Project.

Serbian king Constantine Bodin wife was been Norman.

[Robocop]

Thanks a lot for that quality post and for talking about other lands as well to consider the "viking" imput in terms of genetics

About Normandy I can add since the Duchy was legit and ruled by Norsemen chiefs and farmers, they were actually really independant from Frankish Kingdom.

The rulers were called Dukes in french but actually they were called Jarl overthere and considered as powerful as Princes.

They signed to adopt christianity but truth is they still behaved as pagans for 2 or 3 generations. I mean they kept their customs, the "more danico" (danish marriage) allowing them to have two wives (one legit by christian marriage and having children for strategic alliance, second one "frilla" as real lover chosen wife and effetive concubine), kept their law system, instauring the "Thing" there, Dukes were actually considered and called "Jarl" of Normandy etc.

Lol their way to chose a frilla, lover/second wife, was to capture her, omg... and no marry her by christian marriage at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_danico

Ironically Rollo (Hrólfr) the first Jarl of Normandy and the most pagan of all even if baptised is burried in my current town in the Cathedral. When I come to visit him I smile wondering "what would you think about being trapped forever in this beautiful catholic Cathedral, dear Rollo ?"

Acording to Adémar de Chabanne (medieval monk and writer, 989-1034) Rollo made blòt (human sacrifices) for the Gods as a Jarl before to die.

He never considered Charles the Simple as more powerful than him, the day they signed the Treaty of Saint Clair sur Epte, Charles the Simple asked him to kiss his feet. Lol, he said no way, never, so he asked one of his men to do instead of him. The norseman took up the foot of Charles the Simple so high he fell down and all norsemen laughed at the "poor fallen King", obviously lol.

After the Treaty another anecdote : two knights of the Frankish Kingdom came to Rouen in order to rate if Gisela the daughter of the King was well treated and if Rollo was ruling corretly, good christian, etc lol, he learnt they were walking around without his autorisation to enter Normandy and ordered to cut off their head in the public place.

To talk about William the Conqueror again, he was actually the FIRST one of his dynasty (descendant from Rollo) to STOP this pagan way of living. He totally adopted Christianism and was very good Christian. He fell in love with Mathilda (from Flanders) but she was too close cousin to be allowed to marry him. So, he built for the Pope great churches and abbeys to ask her hand and be allowed to marry her as a Christian. He did and the Pope allowed them to marry. He had no second wife, only her. He suffered from the more danico actually himself because he was the son of the previous Duke but son of the lover spouse (frilla), not the christian wife. They were considered as legit spouses by Norman laws but he was in troubles as a christian to prove he was legit Duke. I guess this is why he decided to stop himself this more danico and was so faithful.

About paganism you find today in Normandy a lot of places, towns etc called with a reference to Norse Gods : "Auzouville" from "Asulfr" : the Wolf of Ases (Heathen Gods). Also patronymic names you still find nowadays such as "Turquetil" from "Thorketill" : Thor's Helmet.

A quality post from you as well, as usual .

[Petalpusher]

First time I have to stand on defend the term french

French means: my oldest known ancestor was from frogeatersland

Rethel? It's an actual town in the Ardennes. People there are called Rethélois not Rethelid, if so you need an update.

[Aëlwenn]

French National Education system and his propaganda want to destroying any diversity, except non european's one.
Denying Vikings colonization is stupid. The raids and installations of Vikings settlers began before the tittle of Rollo and continued afterwards.
I can't understand why people want to minimize the impact of Viking colonization.

[Rethel]

Nice thread.
About Normans in Balkans (espesially among the Serbs).
There is like a 9,95% of I haplogroup among the Serbs for now (Drobnjak tribe - I1 P109,

The oldest I1 was found on the
Balkans. Just stop it, please...

[Dick]

The oldest I1 was found on the
Balkans. Just stop it, please...

MORE LIKE CENTRAL EUROPE, NOT THE BALKANS.

The earliest sign of haplogroup I1 emerged from the testing of Early Neolithic Y-DNA from western Hungary (Szécsényi-Nagy et al. 2014). A single I1 sample was identified alongside a G2a2b sample, both from the early Linear Pottery (LBK) culture, which would later diffuse the new agricultural lifestyle to most of Poland, Germany and the Low Countries. This means that haplogroup I1 was present in central Europe at the time of the Neolithic expansion.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml





I1 L22-P109 IS THE SCANDINAVIAN SUBCLADE OF I1 BUT THEN AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT VARIOUS SUBCLADES LET ALONE Y-DNA IN GENERAL. SHOW US YOUR Y-DNA RESULTS. EVERYONE ELSE HAS. WHAT'S THE BIG SECRET?

ONCE AGAIN YOU'VE PROVEN THAT YOU'RE JEALOUS OF HAPLOGROUP I