Is Modern Greece a Secular Country? Poll!

[dustdragon5717]

I hate secularism, but that is the direction that Europe and to a lesser extent the Americas seem to be moving.

Europeans and those of European descent seem to be sloughing off their ancestral relationship with Christianity like it was a bad hangover, this is especially true among the youth who have been taught that Christianity is scientifically untennable, socially repressive, intolerant and backward. This of course was all planned, and the young are the most malleable, but honestly this might be a good thing as Christianity was never something that was meant to become attached to a national identity as though it was a mere appendage of the former. Christians are citizens of heaven first before they are citizens of any other nation.

I rejected the denomination of my upbringing much to the sorrow of some in my family, but that is because to me religion is about truth and not culture ... so I say let its ties with culture be severed and let God's grace bring to salvation those whom He wills to save and let others live as they will live, and believe what they will believe.

[dustdragon5717]

Interestingly I know multiple people who were formerly evangelical Christians who have converted to Orthodoxy, Orthodoxy itself seems to be healthy and despite being so strongly tied to various national identities seems to also express a certain catholicity (small c) and has attracted people of all ethnic backgrounds.

I however cannot embrace it because of my Augustinianism.

[Queen B]

What about the rights of atheists, secularists, and free thinkers?

Οther religions or Atheists have no problem in Greece.
You can see several groups like Evangelistic Christians, Jehova's witnesses, Jews, etc , no problem.
2 things Greek society doesn't like
a) Proselytism
b) Islam.

I'm an atheist (brothers as well), and even my parents are culturaly Christians. I mean, baptise kids and such, but that's it.

Apart from elderly population, Greeks don't visit church unless its a funeral/baptism/marriage, and in Easter Week.
In some local places, they visit church when its the name day of the local saint, like its St. Dionysios in Zakynthos for example. And that's it . They don't know the gospels, they are not literate in Christianity. Christianity is part of our history, that's it .

[Petros Agapetos]

Οther religions or Atheists have no problem in Greece.
You can see several groups like Evangelistic Christians, Jehova's witnesses, Jews, etc , no problem.
2 things Greek society doesn't like
a) Proselytism
b) Islam.

I'm an atheist (brothers as well), and even my parents are culturaly Christians. I mean, baptise kids and such, but that's it.

Apart from elderly population, Greeks don't visit church unless its a funeral/baptism/marriage, and in Easter Week.
In some local places, they visit church when its the name day of the local saint, like its St. Dionysios in Zakynthos for example. And that's it . They don't know the gospels, they are not literate in Christianity. Christianity is part of our history, that's it .

It's very nice to hear that you have moderation in faith.
I think that is important for a strong and stable country.

Armenians also go to Church mainly on occasion and on holidays.
People are culturally Christian but not very educated in the Bible and Christianity (to be honest).
Christianity is just ingrained within the cultural identity of the ethnicity and the nation of Armenia.
We have the oldest state church, for that reason, our Armenian Apostolic Church is very special to us.
Most Armenians belong to this Church, others are Catholic.

[Mingle]

I was never under any impression that European countries were anything but secular, except for Poland and Russia (to an extent).

[catgeorge]

Greece was liberated in 1821 and its 200 year democratic cycle is almost over.

According to Alexander Tyler the great Scottish political scientist of the 17 hundreds I would place Greece currently in bondage under banks for the current cycle... that may last for another 5 or so years which will be the tipping point for a new spiritualism old or new.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury.

"From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising them the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.

"The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence:

"From bondage to spiritual faith;
from spiritual faith to great courage;
from courage to liberty;
from liberty to abundance;
from abundance to selfishness;
from selfishness to apathy;
from apathy to dependence;
from dependency back again into bondage."

[Queen B]

It's very nice to hear that you have moderation in faith.
I think that is important for a strong and stable country.

Yes, moderation is the key.
Even the elder, who are more literate in the doctrines, and go to church more often, are more openminded.Greeks were never following step-by-step the Church.

[Petros Agapetos]

I am curious, would people in Greece approve of same sex marriage for gay couples?
And if not, what kind of reasons, do you think they would offer for their stance? religious? or secular?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...light=marriage
Thread on Same Sex Marriage
Arguments for and against.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...listic-Fallacy
Informal Fallacy of Reference - Naturalistic Fallacy

[Petros Agapetos]

Treatment of the Jehovah's Witnesses (1987)

Laws restricting freedom of religion were passed in Greece in 1938 and have never been repealed. 1 One requires that anyone wishing to operate a place of worship must first obtain two permits: one from the Ministry of Education and Religious Affairs, and the other from the local bishop of the Greek Orthodox Church.

In the village of Gazi in Crete, the local Greek Orthodox priest stated during a sermon in 1987 that "Jehovah's Witnesses have a hall right here in our village. I need your support to get rid of them." A few days later, windows were smashed and shots were fired at the local Kingdom Hall by persons unknown. Four Jehovah's Witnesses from the village applied for a Government permit which they felt might give them some protection. The Orthodox priest sent a letter to the security police in Heralklion, in which he requested that the Witness' meetings be banned. These letters started a long judicial process:

The four were charged with violating the 1938 law.

1987-OCT-6: The Criminal Court of Heralkion acquitted them "because members of a religion are free to conduct meetings...no permit being necessary" Unfortunately, the prosecutor appealed the decision to a higher court which found the defendants guilty and sentenced them to 2 months imprisonment and a fine equivalent to about $100 USF. The Witnesses appealed to the Greek Supreme Court

1993-SEP-20: The Supreme Court upheld the conviction. The Kingdom Hall was immediately sealed by the police. The four Witnesses appealed to the European Commission of Human Rights. on the grounds that Article 9 of the European Convention guaranteed freedom of thought, freedom of conscience, freedom of religion, and the right to meet with others in public or private.

1995-MAY-25: The Commission unanimously agreed with the Witnesses. They mentioned that "The applicants...are members of a movement whose religious rites and practices are widely known and authorized in many European countries." The Commission referred the case to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg.

1995-MAY-20: The case was heard in the European Court. The Witness' lawyer maintained that the conviction violated both the European Convention and the Constitution of Greece itself. The lawyer for the Greek government explained that the law was necessary to keep other religions in check, and that since 1960, the Jehovah's Witnesses has greatly increased in numbers in Greece.

1995-SEP-26: The 9 judges of the Court unanimously agreed that the Greek government had violated the European Convention. The defendants were awarded the equivalent of $17,000 US to cover their expenses. They criticized the Greek law which allows for "far reaching interference by the political, administrative and ecclesiastical authorities with the exercise of religious freedom." The state had imposed "rigid, or indeed prohibitive, conditions on practice of religious beliefs by certain non-orthodox movements, in particular Jehovah's Witnesses."

This is the second of two similar decisions involving the Jehovah's Witnesses and Greece. 2 The oppressive legislation remains on the books.

[Petros Agapetos]

Treatment of Evangelical Christians during IAAF Competition (1997)

An Evangelical Christian group was harassed and attacked by police during the International Amateur Athletic Federation's (IAAF) Track and Field competition. This occurred during the last week of the Athens games which ended on 1997-AUG-10.

The victimized group, "More Than Gold" (MTG) established a booth at the stadium, and obtained permission from IAAF officials to distribute a leaflet which contained a schedule of events, stories of Christian athletes, and an advertisement for the Athens '97 games.

On the third day of the games, the police stormed the booth and forced the volunteers off the Olympic stadium premises. The police gave no indication why they did this, other than to say that they were simply following orders. During the remaining week of the games, the MTG leaders were "endlessly harassed, pushed, and even followed home by plainclothes police."

A local human rights group offered to let the MTG volunteers pass out the literature at their booths, but the police again forced them off the stadium grounds. The police later roughed them up physically, and refused to identify themselves when asked to do so.

The MTG had arranged for a performance by a Seattle WA musical group Scarlet Journey The police ordered the group to leave the stage, angering the audience. MTG representative Johnathan Macris blamed the state church for the victimization. "The Greek Orthodox Church has tremendous influence in keeping evangelical Christians from sharing their faith in Jesus Christ with the people of Greece, despite the fact that Greece takes great pride in calling itself a Christian nation. This is a sad commentary for our country which boasts a heritage of tolerance and free expression."