Divergence of races

[Peterski]

Johen,

If you claim that Amerindians have no Caucasoid, then it means that North-Western Europeans have a lot of Mongoloid. Because North-Western Europeans and Native Americans share a lot of ANE admixture.

Below a comparison of some Native Americans and Europeans in Gedrosia K6 calculator:

Native Americans:

NA42 ancient Peru 1000-1500 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 72.22
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.62
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 9.16

MARC1492 Mi'kmaq 1550-1700 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 62.05
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 26.07
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.36
4 Natufian 3.6
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.6
6 Sub_Saharan 0.33

Paleo-Eskimo Saqqaq ca. 2000 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 76.08
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 10.91
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.09
4 Sub_Saharan 3.06
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.66
6 Natufian 1.2

Clovis Anzick-1 Montana 10700-10550 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 60.7
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 23.77
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 8.54
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.84
5 Sub_Saharan 1.16

Kennewick Man USA 7000-6900 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 58.83
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.52
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 11.66
4 Natufian 3.23
5 Sub_Saharan 3.08
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

============================

North-Western Europeans:

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.13
2 Natufian 32.90
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.78
4 East_Asian 1.23

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.12
2 Natufian 34.23
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.99
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.94
5 East_Asian 1.73

Modern North Dutch:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.75
2 Natufian 35.9
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.07
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.15
5 Sub_Saharan 0.14

Modern English:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 42.61
2 Natufian 36.62
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.84
4 East_Asian 1.41
5 Sub_Saharan 1.14
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.38

Modern Swedish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 46.24
2 Natufian 33.38
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.13
4 East_Asian 2.25

Modern Irish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.1
2 Natufian 33.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.8
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.72
5 East_Asian 0.8

Rathlin-1 Ireland 2030-1880 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.39
2 Natufian 29.8
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 22.68
4 Sub_Saharan 2.27
5 East_Asian 1.86

Hinxton-1 Britain 160 BC - 25 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.16
2 Natufian 35
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.84

Hinxton-4 Britain 170 BC - 80 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.11
2 Natufian 33.9
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.27
4 East_Asian 1.72

[Harkonnen]

Johen,

If you claim that Amerindians have no Caucasoid, then it means that North-Western Europeans have a lot of Mongoloid. Because North-Western Europeans and Native Americans share a lot of ANE admixture.

Below a comparison of some Native Americans and Europeans in Gedrosia K6 calculator:

Native Americans:

NA42 ancient Peru 1000-1500 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 72.22
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.62
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 9.16

NA40 ancient Peru 1000-1500 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 55.92
2 Sub_Saharan 22.07
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.92
4 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 3.1

MARC1492 Mi'kmaq 1550-1700 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 62.05
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 26.07
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.36
4 Natufian 3.6
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.6
6 Sub_Saharan 0.33

Paleo-Eskimo Saqqaq 2000 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 76.08
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 10.91
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.09
4 Sub_Saharan 3.06
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.66
6 Natufian 1.2

Clovis Anzick-1 Montana 10700-10550 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 60.7
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 23.77
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 8.54
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.84
5 Sub_Saharan 1.16

[B]Kennewick Man USA 7000-6900 BC:[/B]

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 58.83
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.52
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 11.66
4 Natufian 3.23
5 Sub_Saharan 3.08
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

============================

North-Western Europeans:

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.13
2 Natufian 32.90
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.78
4 East_Asian 1.23

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.12
2 Natufian 34.23
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.99
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.94
5 East_Asian 1.73

Modern North Dutch:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.75
2 Natufian 35.9
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.07
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.15
5 Sub_Saharan 0.14

Modern English:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 42.61
2 Natufian 36.62
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.84
4 East_Asian 1.41
5 Sub_Saharan 1.14
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.38

Modern Swedish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 46.24
2 Natufian 33.38
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.13
4 East_Asian 2.25

Modern Irish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.1
2 Natufian 33.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.8
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.72
5 East_Asian 0.8

You dumb Polak NW Euros have have way more Mongoloid than those stone age admixture calculators ans their "ANE" suggest.

I seriously want to strangle all Polish Ladyboys

[johen]

Johen

If you claim that Amerindians have no Caucasoid, then it means that North-Western Europeans have a lot of Mongoloid. Because North-Western Europeans and Native Americans share a lot of ANE admixture.

I never claimed that. Can we discuss their ancestor first? Why do you think AG 2 is mongoloid?

Afontova Gora II with Eurogenes K15:

North sea 19.25
Baltic 9.77
East Euro 51.75
south aisan 2.26 south
east asian 1.63
sibreian 3.58
american Idian 16.97
oceanian 0.34
Northeast African 0.26

"V. P. Alekseev discussed the racial types of the Altai-Sayan uplands during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. On the basis of geological and palreo-climatic evidence, he feels that the initial human settlement of the area could have taken place as far back as the Lower Palreolithic (which in Soviet usage includes the Mousterian). Judging by the Afontova Gora II cranial fragment, the Upper Palreolithic population evidently must be assigned to the Mongoloid race. The Europeoid component begins to penetrate into certain areas during the Neolithic-especially into the southern part of the Krasnoyarsk Territory.

[Rethel]

Currently the best model is roughly this:

Timeline of key events:

250-200,000 years ago - AMH (modern humans) evolve in Africa
250-200,000 years ago - estimated lifetimes of "Y Adam" and "mt Eve"
195,000 years ago - Omo I (the oldest known skull considered AMH)
160,000 years ago - Herto (the 2nd oldest known skull considered AMH)
125-100,000 years ago - 1st "Out of Africa" migration (e.g. Qafzeh 9 skull)
90,000 years ago - Ice Age desertification decimates Eurasian AMH
75,000 years ago - Toba eruption leads to extinction of Eurasian AMH
75-70,000 years ago - 2nd (successful) "Out of Africa" migration of AMH
70-60,000 years ago - Eurasian AMHs first admix with Neanderthals

Time of divergence of races:

1) Capoids - ca. 160-150,000 years old
2) Bambutids - ca. 130,000 years old
3) Negroids - ca. 90-65,000 years old
4) Negritoids - ca. 65-55,000 years old
5) Veddoids - ca. 65-55,000 years old
6) Australoids - ca. 60-40,000 years old
7) Caucasoids - ca. 45-30,000 years old
8) Mongoloids - ca. 45-30,000 years old
9) Amerinds - ca. 30-20,000 years old*

*They evolved in Beringia (see the "Beringian standstill hypothesis").

Capoids = Khoisan Bushmen (and similar groups)
Bambutids = African Pygmies (and similar groups)
Negroids (also known as Congoids) = Black Africans
Negritoids = Andamanese and other Negrito groups in Asia
Veddois = Ancestral South Indians (ASI admixture)
Australoids = Sahulians (Australia, Tasmania, New Guinea)

You do not need fictional hundreds of thousands
of years to developed a race. All what you need
is a small inbreeding group. When 70 people did
cross Beringia, then even if they all would be of
different races during first 2-5 generations would
become one race type. But they were obviously
not so different, so their type emerged almost
immidiatly, and the same is the truth about rest
of the people. There is no older race than some
4-6k years, and even some of modern types are
a result of mixing in last 500 years, so come on!

[Rethel]

LOL. Europeans married Native American women, they didn't marry into their tribes, ffs.

Yes, they did. The best example is Cherokee nation. There are
almost everybody - Jews, IEs, Negros, Arabs, Chinese, you name
it. Many white settlers, when they lived in neighbourhood of indian
tribes they were prisoned during war time, and mostly remained as
a part of tribe. Some were slaves even in late XIXth century.

Sometimes, they joined the closest tribe on their own, especially,
where there was some tragedy - for example disease which killed
most of neighbours or famine, and indian tribe was closest human
settlement in hundrets of miles... For example Lost Colony did it.

In many cases, Indian women had bastard children with Europeans,
and becasue noone knew what to do with them, they did remain in
the tribes; in matrilineal automaticly (minority) in patrilineal either by
adoption either by living so long among them, that everybody forgot,
where did they come from... And probably many other reasons had
place also. I remember one western, where guy from the Sioux trbie
was a pure blond white, and another one which came me into mind
is last Mohikanin, where main character is regular white but in tribe.

Btw, even indianic chiefery use to mingled with Europeans.
For example Nonhelema, very famous and influential woman,
chieftess of Shawnee tribe.

She had three husbands, but her sons, were from white lovers....

Nonhelema had three husbands. The first was a Shawnee man.
The third was Shawnee Chief Moluntha. She had a son, Thomas
McKee, through her relationship with Indian Agent Col. Alexander
McKee and another son, Captain Butler/Tamanatha, through her
relationship with Colonel Richard Butler.

Indian women liked to be banged on the side... unfortunatly...

It's pretty much impossible that up to 50% of R1 in some tribes is European.

It is easly possible, becasue these high R1sampled tribes are
usually very small communities, which have today couple of
hundrets or thousands of members, and they are living among
hundrets of millions of Europeans.

In the US in total live 2.2+ millions people who racialy
are halfindian, and another three millions claim to be of
one race, but they are probably mixed in last previous
generations, but they are figuring like one race Indians,
because parents or grands were members of the tribes.

Mal'ta boy (R1) was found in roughly same area from which many of their ancestors headed north to cross Bering strait.

Malta boy simply had an amerindian granny, as
Costas, Potentia and CraisDaisy have. No big deal.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Johen,

If you claim that Amerindians have no Caucasoid, then it means that North-Western Europeans have a lot of Mongoloid. Because North-Western Europeans and Native Americans share a lot of ANE admixture.

Below a comparison of some Native Americans and Europeans in Gedrosia K6 calculator:

Native Americans:

NA42 ancient Peru 1000-1500 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 72.22
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.62
3 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 9.16

MARC1492 Mi'kmaq 1550-1700 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 62.05
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 26.07
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 5.36
4 Natufian 3.6
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.6
6 Sub_Saharan 0.33

Paleo-Eskimo Saqqaq ca. 2000 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 76.08
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 10.91
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 6.09
4 Sub_Saharan 3.06
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.66
6 Natufian 1.2

Clovis Anzick-1 Montana 10700-10550 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 60.7
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 23.77
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 8.54
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 5.84
5 Sub_Saharan 1.16

Kennewick Man USA 7000-6900 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Asian 58.83
2 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.52
3 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 11.66
4 Natufian 3.23
5 Sub_Saharan 3.08
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 2.68

============================

North-Western Europeans:

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.13
2 Natufian 32.90
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.78
4 East_Asian 1.23

Modern Scottish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.12
2 Natufian 34.23
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.99
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.94
5 East_Asian 1.73

Modern North Dutch:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 44.75
2 Natufian 35.9
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.07
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.15
5 Sub_Saharan 0.14

Modern English:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 42.61
2 Natufian 36.62
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 17.84
4 East_Asian 1.41
5 Sub_Saharan 1.14
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.38

Modern Swedish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 46.24
2 Natufian 33.38
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.13
4 East_Asian 2.25

Modern Irish:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.1
2 Natufian 33.58
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 20.8
4 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.72
5 East_Asian 0.8

Rathlin-1 Ireland 2030-1880 BC:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.39
2 Natufian 29.8
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 22.68
4 Sub_Saharan 2.27
5 East_Asian 1.86

Hinxton-1 Britain 160 BC - 25 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.16
2 Natufian 35
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.84

Hinxton-4 Britain 170 BC - 80 AD:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 45.11
2 Natufian 33.9
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.27
4 East_Asian 1.72

Did you make this post before or after I already corrected your ignorant mistake?

Amerindians do not have any Caucasoid admixture. None. Look at Karitiana Indians, they don't have any Caucasoid features what so ever. They show up as ANE on admixture runs because ANE had Amerindian. Amerindians are population outliers(near Mongoloids and close cousins, but not inbetween Mongoloids and any other population), as PCA plots show. They are a pure race. The genetic distance(and historical circumstances) are also big between them(indicating the split happened a long time ago, your estimate seems about right but it's definitely closer to 30k than 20k) and other Mongoloids so no, they are not just arctic Han either.

Where's the European features? Not to mention they have a 0% rate of light eyes/hair excluding albinos, if they had WHG admixture they would have atleast a small rate of light eyes like every other Caucasoid population. It's not a coincidence people have to post North American native Indians to find ones with Caucasoid features, given those are the most admixed with colonist Europeans.



NW Europeans absolutely do have a lot of Mongoloid. People like Norman Reedus wouldn't exist if they didn't. Also, you shouldn't use Eurasia K6. Useless calculator, it has Scandinavians as having more ANE than NE Europeans and puts various non-Bell Beaker ancient IE groups closer to NW Euros than NE Euros which is obviously inaccurate. Unfortunately Basal Rich K7 isn't on GEDMatch, which is a giant shame.

As for someone earlier saying Australoid/Onge/Oceanian are the same thing, they aren't. Australoids/Papuans cluster closely(although still have a great amount of distance between them, probably split off a long time ago) on a world PCA plot but Onge are pretty far away. It could be they are the same thing but the Neanderthal/Denisovan puts them extremely far away from Onge, Onge also might have some unknown archaic human admixture.

[Peterski]

Also, you shouldn't use Eurasia K6. Useless calculator

More useful than Eurogenes ANE K7, in which Mal'ta Boy is only 49% ANE:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...50#post4223850

In Gedrosia K6 Mal'ta Boy is 94% ANE, which is closer to the truth (100%):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4223835

[XenophobicPrussian]

More useful than Eurogenes ANE K7, in which Mal'ta Boy is only 49% ANE:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...50#post4223850

In Gedrosia K6 Mal'ta Boy is 94% ANE, which is closer to the truth (100%):

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4223835

No one said anything about ANE K7, but yes, another shitty calc. It still atleast gets Indo-Europeans as NE Europeans though unlike K6, that's a pretty unforgivable mistake Eurasia K6 makes.

Davidski really needs to get a new ancient calc up on GEDMatch, the rest are made by amateur hobbyists with too few SNPs.

[cosmoo]

Where's the European features? Not to mention they have a 0% rate of light eyes/hair excluding albinos, if they had WHG admixture they would have atleast a small rate of light eyes like every other Caucasoid population. It's not a coincidence people have to post North American native Indians to find ones with Caucasoid features, given those are the most admixed with colonist Europeans.

I'm not really well-versed in these aDNA calculators, but going by anthropology, many of northern Native Americans of Great Plains do have significant Upper Palaeolithic European influence.
In the totality of facial features, with a few exceptions, the Upper Palaeolithic people may be said to have resembled modern white men. Some, however, probably looked like a certain type of American Indian, notably that of the North American Plains, and of the Onas and Tehuelche of southernmost South America. This comparison, we must remember, is wholly morphological, since we do not know Upper Palaeolithic man’s pigmentation, hair form, or hair distribution.
(TRoE, chapter II, section 6)
Comanche chieftain Wild Horse (note that this is before mixing with Europeans) is a good example of that influence (had better picture, can't find it on Google anymore):

Cheyenne chieftain Dull Knife:

[Dick]