Britain and America will no longer invade foreign countries

[IvanchoIotata]

What about Putin, when he'll stop doing that invading business?

[zhaoyun]

That's what we've been duping ourselves into thinking we were doing all along. The West needs to realize not everyone values freedom, individuality, and democratic ideals. You can't teach Iraqis to govern themselves. Perhaps it's not in their DNA.

It was a complete sham anyways. The neocons weren't really interested in creating prosperous democracies, they just used that as a cover to create chaos and bloodshed in order to solidify imperial overreach.

Anyways, the best way for the US and the UK to spread democracy is simply by practicing it the best. If we are prosperous, orderly and innovative, other countries will seek to emulate our system for their own good. It took many centuries for the West to evolve into what it is today, you can't just force change on it overnight. Imagine if modern day Sweden went back in time and invaded 19th Century America with it's slavery and violence, and tried to remake it into the image of modern day liberal Sweden, it'd be a complete fucking disaster. Societies take time to evolve naturally and based on their own national and cultural conditions and needs.

[zhaoyun]

What about Putin, when he'll stop doing that invading business?

I assume if he reaches a line of understanding with the West. As to where Russia's interests should not be crossed. If he had something to lose, he'd probably think twice about opportunistic land grabbing. Although the issue with the Crimea was just easy fruit.

[Smitty]

It was a complete sham anyways. The neocons weren't really interested in creating prosperous democracies, they just used that as a cover to create chaos and bloodshed in order to solidify imperial overreach.

Very possibly so. That "sham" would've been the only way to get American citizens on board. That being said, had Iraqis wanted to, they could have taken advantage of the situation and made a Western-style nation for themselves. We did the hard, dirty work. We took out the dictator, and we provided military support and aid.

Anyways, the best way for the US and the UK to spread democracy is simply by practicing it the best. If we are prosperous, orderly and innovative, other countries will seek to emulate our system for their own good. It took many centuries for the West to evolve into what it is today, you can't just force change on it overnight. Imagine if modern day Sweden went back in time and invaded 19th Century America with it's slavery and violence, and tried to remake it into the image of modern day liberal Sweden, it'd be a complete fucking disaster. Societies take time to evolve naturally and based on their own national and cultural conditions and needs.

Honestly, I don't think it will spread. Liberty is like righteousness. It doesn't spring up naturally, and it's not maintained passively. As you say, many centuries of cultural (and probably genetic) evolution, within a religious framework, were necessary for it to come about. And it is crumbling in the face of Western ignorance, apathy, and selfishness. Other countries may adopt capitalist economies, as we're seeing in China. But freedom of the mind and body is another thing entirely.

[zhaoyun]

Very possibly so. That "sham" would've been the only way to get American citizens on board. That being said, had Iraqis wanted to, they could have taken advantage of the situation and made a Western-style nation for themselves. We did the hard, dirty work. We took out the dictator, and we provided military support and aid.



Honestly, I don't think it will spread. Liberty is like righteousness. It doesn't spring up naturally, and it's not maintained passively. As you say, many centuries of cultural (and probably genetic) evolution, within a religious framework, were necessary for it to come about. And it is crumbling in the face of Western ignorance, apathy, and selfishness. Other countries may adopt capitalist economies, as we're seeing in China. But freedom of the mind and body is another thing entirely.

There was no way that Iraq could've created a functional democracy. Societies are not individuals. As an individual, you can come to a personal decision and just turn your life around. But a society is a collection of millions of individuals. Iraq had deep tribal divisions, had no rule of law, was impoverished after decades of war and sanctions, there was no way it could've been anything other than a disaster.

As for China, it's still a work in progress. It might be quite possible that it eventually moves towards liberal democracy, that's not to say it would become a democracy in the sense of how the US works, but it may become a country with an authoritarian political structure that allows broad protection for civil rights, and embraces liberal western values such as respect for LGBT, minorities, animal rights, etc. You'd be surprised how resonant many of these values are with the rising Chinese urban middle class, they are likely to be the standard bearers for social change in China in the decades to come.

As for the West, we are going through a major flux right now. Hard to say how it will look like in 10-20 years. Either way, the practice of nation building has been a completely disaster on so many levels. I'm glad it's ending.

[Smitty]

There was no way that Iraq could've created a functional democracy. Societies are not individuals. As an individual, you can come to a personal decision and just turn your life around. But a society is a collection of millions of individuals. Iraq had deep tribal divisions, had no rule of law, was impoverished after decades of war and sanctions, there was no way it could've been anything other than a disaster.

Agreed.

As for China, it's still a work in progress. It might be quite possible that it eventually moves towards liberal democracy, that's not to say it would become a democracy in the sense of how the US works, but it may become a country with an authoritarian political structure that allows broad protection for civil rights, and embraces liberal western values such as respect for LGBT, minorities, animal rights, etc. You'd be surprised how resonant many of these values are with the rising Chinese urban middle class, they are likely to be the standard bearers for social change in China in the decades to come.

I can see human rights being exported from the West. It's the personal freedoms - those of speech, religion, association, etc. - that I don't see catching on elsewhere. I may be wrong, though.

As for the West, we are going through a major flux right now. Hard to say how it will look like in 10-20 years. Either way, the practice of nation building has been a completely disaster on so many levels. I'm glad it's ending.

Completely agree.

[zhaoyun]

Agreed.



I can see human rights being exported from the West. It's the personal freedoms - those of speech, religion, association, etc. - that I don't see catching on elsewhere. I may be wrong, though.



Completely agree.

Western concepts of personal freedoms, attaining to freedom of speech, assembly, religion have already been cemented in many East Asian societies including Taiwan and South Korea.

[Graham]

Same reporter today saying May has signed an arms contract to supply jets to Turkey.

[Egyptian]

Bullshit ..

[ariel]

THANK GOD.

I'm still holding out a candle of hope for Trump. He's really annoyed me at a personal level so far, but I'll judge him by the results when 2020 comes around.

You voted for hilary?