Are observations about racial types made by old anthropologists still valid?

[Amud]

Coon says a lot of things which don't seem to be true today.

*France is mostly Alpine (actually, Alpines seem to be rare everywhere)

*Montenegro is mostly Borreby (look at crowd pictures of Montenegrins. They look the same as any other Balkan people except for a small handful of individuals)

*This type is the main type in Slavic countries:


(in reality, how many Slavs have upturned noses, convex upper lips, and are hyperbrachycephalic?)

*This is the main type in the British Isles:


(in reality, I've only seen a handful of Brits who really fit into Coon's Keltic Nordic type)

*Albania has extreme Dinaric types



(when's the last time you have seen any Albanians looking like that? None of the modern Albanians I have seen pictures of look anywhere close to that)



And so that got me thinking, what if Coon's observations were actually true in his day, but aren't anymore? It seems reasonable that the relative frequency of different phenotypes could change substantially in just a few generations due to differential death rates in wars, differential rates of migration and mixing, and changes in patterns of sexual selection due to cultural change. Are all of these fancy and exotic phenotypes noted by the old taxonomic traditions like Alpines, Dinarics, Brunns, etc. being mixed or selected out of existence and gradually replaced by unspecialized, gracile Mediterraneans?

[johen]

it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other.

Loring Brace, 242–247(2003)
The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form

[Iloko]

This was an interesting read: http://anthro.palomar.edu/vary/vary_2.htm

[RN97]

I only know of one person from Montenegro, it's a girl who went in the same class as me in high school. Both her and her Montenegrin BF seems to portray borreby traits I usually don't see among the other Balkanites.
Don't quote I'll remove it soon.


There probably is some truth to it, but not entirely. The French are stereotyped as alpinzed indeed IMO. Maybe alpine mixed with med/ nordic etc. however I still think the majority of Frenchmen are alpinized to some degree. Most Brits might not be KN, but that's still where KN is most prevalent and they're still numerous there so it's stereotypical for brits to be KN.

[Bosnjakinja]

^^It's strange but none of them give me a Montenegrin vibe... I would have guessed Bosnia if anyone asked which Balkan country they''re from.

What are their first names (just so I can determine if they're Orthodox or Muslim)? You can reply in a rep comment if you dont want it out on the forum.

[cosmoo]

*France is mostly Alpine (actually, Alpines seem to be rare everywhere)

It all depends on the region. Massif Central in southern France contains largest unmixed Alpine population.

*Montenegro is mostly Borreby (look at crowd pictures of Montenegrins. They look the same as any other Balkan people except for a small handful of individuals)

He didn't really say Borreby, but "Borreby-like". It is, however, esentially a brachycephalic CM (whether or not Borreby). That is confirmed by the fact that Montenegrins as a nation have several most extreme average measurements in Europe (data from TRoE, primarily from Robert W. Ehrich study of Montenegrins):
Head breadth: 160mm
Bizygomatic breadth: 147mm
Minimum frontal: 112mm
Height: 178cm
Weight: 72kg
Those measurements can only mean very close relation to Upper Palaeolithic Europeans.

Not only Coon, but also more recent anthropological researches confirmed the same thing. Greek anthropologist Aris Poulianous conducted research on Montenegrins from Durmitor in 1976, and, like Coon, determined absolutely biggest bizygomatic in whole Europe, this time even wider, with average of 149mm (A. N. Poulianos, Montenegrins versus other Balkan people,Zbornik radova, Posebna izdanja
Antropološkog društva Jugoslavije, sv. 3, Beograd 1976. ). Unfortunately I don't have other measurements from his work.

Searching online for photos will bring you exactly nothing. When I type "Montenegrins" in image search, I get tons of photos of men in what clearly is Albanian folk costume, not to mention other pictures of non-Montenegrins pop up.
But as you wish, here are some Montenegrins in group of type desribed by Coon:



And to find not simply brachy CM, but a pure Borreby, I have to go no further from my own family. Here is my old man (don't quote):
pic removed[/IMG]

*This type is the main type in Slavic countries:
[/IMG]
(in reality, how many Slavs have upturned noses, convex upper lips, and are hyperbrachycephalic?)

A man doesn't have to look exactly like him to be Neo-Danubian. Upturned nose and convex lips aren't mandatory for that type, not sure if even included into description.

*This is the main type in the British Isles:
(in reality, I've only seen a handful of Brits who really fit into Coon's Keltic Nordic type)

Same as with the Neo-Danubian. I think you are actually mistaking subjectively perceived facial vibe for actual metric characteristics of the type here.
IMO most of the Brits fit into Keltic type, though they have a slightly lower C.I. than it is usual for it.

*Albania has extreme Dinaric types
(when's the last time you have seen any Albanians looking like that? None of the modern Albanians I have seen pictures of look anywhere close to that)

Again, seeing on internet means little in light of anthropological research. If you can't find a pure Dinaric in Albania, then trust me, you won't find it anywhere.

And so that got me thinking, what if Coon's observations were actually true in his day, but aren't anymore? It seems reasonable that the relative frequency of different phenotypes could change substantially in just a few generations due to differential death rates in wars, differential rates of migration and mixing, and changes in patterns of sexual selection due to cultural change. Are all of these fancy and exotic phenotypes noted by the old taxonomic traditions like Alpines, Dinarics, Brunns, etc. being mixed or selected out of existence and gradually replaced by unspecialized, gracile Mediterraneans?

Quite possibly, albeit not to that large extent. Yugoslavia was, for example, very brachycephalic 60-70 years ago, and newer studies confirm that average C.I. has fallen to low brachy, bordering mesocephaly. I think that some fluid traits (like C.I.) changed from his time, but that basis remained the same.

[nightrider+]

Genes aren't everything. An urban dweller who had everything easy will most likely not look like his grandfather who worked the fields since he was 8 years old.

[johen]

Coon says

I have one question, not related to this thread.

Did Coon really say that UP was mixed with Homo sapiens and Neanderthals?

The Caucasoid race is of dual origin consisting of Upper Paleolithic (mixture of Homo sapiens and Neanderthals) types and Mediterranean (purely Homo sapiens) types.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ra..._Europe_(Coon)

[Raikaswinþs]

Nop, they are pseudo science. There are at least a million posts on those topics alone in this forum,possibly something of 50% of all the total posts of the board personal estimate) all of which are useless for anything else than dealing with personal or collective insecurities, weird nationalist political agendas and a few mental disorders. Thou shall learn no science in The Apricity.

Waste of cyberspace. And there's a handful of forums like this one (TA is the only surviving one , most of the others are low traffic, even weirder cesspits, at least TA has another half of the foru dedicated to all other topics). This one at least dresses itself as a "cultural community" and it has a relatively wide range of other topics.

[Lucas]

Nop, they are pseudo science. There are at least a million posts on those topics alone in this forum,possibly something of 50% of all the total posts of the board personal estimate) all of which are useless for anything else than dealing with personal or collective insecurities, weird nationalist political agendas and a few mental disorders. Thou shall learn no science in The Apricity.

Waste of cyberspace. And there's a handful of forums like this one (TA is the only surviving one , most of the others are low traffic, even weirder cesspits, at least TA has another half of the foru dedicated to all other topics). This one at least dresses itself as a "cultural community" and it has a relatively wide range of other topics.

I really don't understand such users.
You don't like such topics? Why you are here?
Somebody forces you to read about phenotypes?
You wish this forum should be closed like others before. Becasue you don't like it? So go to the forum about makeup or sth. You will be pleased probably much more than here.

It is also to other such "users" Only complaning about this "awful, racist phenotype threads".