Who, genetically, are the least Slavic of the Slavs?

[Deniz]

I scored %25 North Slavic in Dnaland.I saw Macedonian and Bulgarians,They scored %20 or %17.I think same with Norka.

[War Chef]

Montenegrins of course.

[Kriptc06]

Macedonians Imo

[Voskos]

either slavomacedonians or montenegrins

[Peterski]

About the ethnogenesis of South Slavs I wrote something here:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4268278

If we believe Max Vasmer, the association between Slavs and slaves originated during the Slavic invasion of the Balkans in the 6th century AD, when invading North Slavs enslaved a lot of native Balkanians, and Slavicized them - leading to the ethnogenesis of South Slavs. Balkan Slavs are largely descended from those subjects of the Byzantine Empire who were enslaved and Slavicized by Slavs (Emperor Maurice in his "Strategikon" wrote that Slavs did not keep slaves in perpetual slavery, but incorporated them into their own egalitarian societies).

According to Max Vasmer, the term "sclavos" meaning "slave" rather than "ethnic Slav", was for the first time used by Agathias of Myrina already in the 6th century AD.

Let's see what Byzantine authors wrote about that:

Emperor Maurice, "Strategikon", 11, 4:

"The Sclavenes and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs. They are both independent, absolutely refusing to be enslaved or ruled by foreigners, least of all in their own land. They are populous and hardy, bearing readily heat, cold, rain, nakedness, and scarcity of provisions. They are kind and hospitable to travellers in their country and conduct them safely from one place to another, wherever they wish. (...) They [Slavs], unlike other peoples, do not keep those who are in captivity among them in perpetual slavery, but they set a definite period of time for them, after which they give them the choice: either, when they so desire, to return to their own homes if they purchase their freedom, or to stay among them as free people and friends."

So Slavs were increasing their numbers by incorporating captured slaves into their ranks, and assimilating them. Let's see what Byzantine authors wrote about Slavic slave raids:

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", VII, 13, 24:

"For a great throng of barbarians, the Slavs, had, as it happened, recently crossed the river Danube, plundered the adjoining country, and enslaved a very great number of Romans."

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", III, 3, 9-19:

"The Slavs took the city [of Toperus] in the following manner. Most of them hid themselves in hilly country opposite the walls, and a few of them, going up before the eastern gates, annoyed the Romans on the parapets. The soldiers who were on guard there, thinking that they (Slavs) were no more numerous than those whom they saw, all immediately taking up their weapons, went out against them. The barbarians retreated, giving the appearance to their pursuers that they retreated out of fear. Those in ambush came out now, behind the pursuers, no longer allowing them entry into the city. Those who appeared to be fleeing now turned about and placed the Romans in a position of double attack. Having slain all of them, the barbarians attacked the wall. The inhabitants of the city, deprived of the soldiers, were at a great loss and defended themselves against the attackers with those that remained. First, heating oil and pitch, they poured it on the besiegers and, all of them hurling stones against them, came close to repulsing the danger. But then the barbarians, having driven them back from the parapets by a multitude of arrows and having placed ladders against the wall, took the city by storm. They slew all 15,000 men, plundered all the wealth, and enslaved all the women and children."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 23, 6:

"The Slavs ravaged all of Europe; captured cities were either razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men were carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district was deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids: yet no tax was remitted, except in the case of cities that had been captured by the enemy, and then only for one year."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars [to ask him for help against the Slavs]."

Archaeology also confirms those written accounts quoted above:

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows."

Among few Greek cities which resisted enslavement by Slavs, was Thessaloniki:

http://groznijat.tripod.com/slav/vryonis.html

"The strongest hybridisation processes involved the South Slavs":

http://www.archeo.uw.edu.pl/swarch/S...B-s205-212.pdf



The list of primary sources which describe how Early Slavs looked like:

6th century AD:

- Procopius of Caesarea
- Theophylact Simocatta
- Theophanes the Confessor
- Emperor Maurice ("Strategikon")
- Pseudo-Caesarius of Nazianzus

7th century AD:

- Al-Ahtal
- Ibn Qutaybah

8th century AD:

- Ibn Al-Kalbi

9th century AD:

- Al-Baladhuri
- Al-Ğāhiz

10th century AD:

- Abraham ben Jacob
- Constantine Porphyrogennetos
- Al-Masudi
- Ibn al-Faqih
- Yaqut al-Hamawi*

*He lived in the 13th century but was quoting 10th century sources.

================

Carleton Stevens Coon, "The Races of Europe", page 220:

https://books.google.pl/books?id=BqC...Nordic&f=false

"(...) On the whole, the Slavic racial type, as exemplified by skeletal series from Poland, Germany, Bohemia, Austria, and Russia, was reasonably uniform ... The Slavs, like all the other Indo-European-speaking peoples whom we have been able to trace, were originally Nordic. (...)"

Anthropological studies of Early Slavs:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post174129

Ilse Schwidetzky, "Rassenkunde der Altslawen":

https://ariets.files.wordpress.com/2...-altslawen.pdf

Nordic (n), Easteuropid (o), Alpinid or Lappid (a), Dinaric (d), Mediterranid (m):

[RN97]

Yes, I'm from the republic but I'm a native with no slavic ancestry at least in the last couple of hundred years which is exactly the period of slavic colonization of eastern Moldova (otherwise there would've been at least one slavic surname). Sure there might be admixture older than 200 years or 500 or 1000. I've read tschort's claims of being part hutsul yet genetically he's slightly less eastern than me (someone with no north slavic ancestry). His maternal side is romanian/moldovan from Vaslui and his paternal side seems about as slavic as his maternal one.

Moldovans are a entirely different thing compared to other Romanians Eurogenes K8 gives Romanians (presumably most are from the south somewhere) like 33% WHG and 13% ANE. Moldovans are 16% ANE and 40% WHG. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...XwUsAA/pubhtml
We know then that Moldovans are more "EHG"-like. Only by looking at them you can tell. BTW this doesn't need to be the Moldovans from Moldova, it can be Romanians from Maramures where they border with slavic Ukranians. The mixture of Moldovans and Slavs might be very old, you might not know of any slavs mixing in with your family in the last 100 years, but it might be much older than that you can tell just by looking at them IMO. A lot of them look like a mix of Ukrainians and south Romanians.

[RN97]

To answer the OP question, I'd say Macedonians and Bulgarians. They're probably genetically further from the original slavs compared to even the average Romanian.

[Profileid]

Actually Slavic-speaking groups are more closely related to each other than Germanic-speaking groups.

So if you think that for example Germanic is a genetic term (do you?) then Slavic is a genetic term too.

NEITHER SLAV OR GERMANIC ARE GENETIC TERMS.

END OF STORY

[RN97]

NEITHER SLAV OR GERMANIC ARE GENETIC TERMS.

END OF STORY

Sure fgt, but the original tribes that spoke those languages were genetically something and that something is what being genetically Slavic/ Germanic means.

[Not a Cop]

Moldovans are a entirely different thing compared to other Romanians Eurogenes K8 gives Romanians (presumably most are from the south somewhere) like 33% WHG and 13% ANE. Moldovans are 16% ANE and 40% WHG. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...XwUsAA/pubhtml
We know then that Moldovans are more "EHG"-like. Only by looking at them you can tell. BTW this doesn't need to be the Moldovans from Moldova, it can be Romanians from Maramures where they border with slavic Ukranians. The mixture of Moldovans and Slavs might be very old, you might not know of any slavs mixing in with your family in the last 100 years, but it might be much older than that you can tell just by looking at them IMO. A lot of them look like a mix of Ukrainians and south Romanians.

That's because moldavian sample is fucked up:
Population ID ANE South_Eurasian Near_Eastern East_Eurasian WHG
Moldavian moldavian_V02612 0.138436 0.01478 0.431613 0.004206 0.391307
Moldavian moldavian_V13693 0.1729 0.001728 0.358749 0.007933 0.441898 - Obvious East-Slav, rather Ukrainian.
Moldavian moldavian_V28645 0.183448 0.024508 0.369633 0.010346 0.386809 - Could be a mixed person or something, too high ANE and rather high WHG
Moldavian moldavian_V44175 0.182211 0.0125 0.316792 0.011555 0.467366 - Obvious East-Slav, rather Russian
Moldavian moldavian_V46055 0.167283 0.016704 0.41326 0.001567 0.398462
Moldavian moldavian_V48759 0.14289 0.025335 0.443036 0.004997 0.374307
Moldavian moldavian_V49937 0.130967 0.015661 0.497581 0.007296 0.342581 - Seems to be an outlier, could be a more southern Romanian or something.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1681484272

As you can see only 3 guys have results that kinda make sense, considering their ancestry, so always check your facts.