Genetics of the Peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean

[Sikeliot]

Anyway we cannot say whether or not Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarian or Albanian since the latter two WERE NOT in the study. All we know is Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians, and even to Southwest Euros (Iberians, French) than to either NE Europeans or MENAs.

[Scholarios]

So maybe the study is flawed, but these Albanians haven't come up with a precise reason why they think this. I myself am skeptical of the way the findings are portrayed here (peloponnesians have no slavic background because they arent similar to poles and russians). But in fact, Peloponnesians are similar to Bulgarians. Also, Albanians are similar to Bulgarians as well. Bulgarians are more similar to Poles than Peloponnesians are. Greeks and Albanians can interpret that any way they like.

[nightrider+]

You do seems to care since you responded anyways.

Yeah, spam/nothing posts trigger me sometimes.

[Coolguy1]

So maybe the study is flawed, but these Albanians haven't come up with a precise reason why they think this. I myself am skeptical of the way the findings are portrayed here (peloponnesians have no slavic background because they arent similar to poles and russians). But in fact, Peloponnesians are similar to Bulgarians. Also, Albanians are similar to Bulgarians as well. Bulgarians are more similar to Poles than Peloponnesians are. Greeks and Albanians can interpret that any way they like.

The only reason Peloponnesians and Bulgarians are similar is because the latter is still predominantly native genetically. The Slavic migrations started from the core of today's Ukraine and Belarus, which is why these populations were used as proxies.

[Laberia]

Anyway we cannot say whether or not Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians than to Bulgarian or Albanian since the latter two WERE NOT in the study. All we know is Peloponnesians are closer to Sicilians, and even to Southwest Euros (Iberians, French) than to either NE Europeans or MENAs.

Sikeliot, try to understand what happened in this region and in the whole Greece. First was the plague of Justinian, who changed the course of history of Europe Asia and Africa. Later arrived the Slavs who wiped what was left from the plague. But the life was not easy for this slavs, there was an permanent epidemi for centuries until when the pandemi exploded again in the VIII century. Here is the return of Byzantines. They replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor, there was an exchange of populations. Here start a period of relative prosperity for Greece and Peloponnesus. All this until the fourth crusade. The game restarted again. Greece became again the battlefield. From one side the crusaders and other states ruled by westerners. From the other side Byzantines who wanted to recuperate using turkish mercenaries, but later turks started to play their game. From North arrived Tsar Dushan. Wars, famine until the epidemi, The Black Death reappeared and this was the most terrible plague in the history. In this moment start the migration of Albanians in Greece. In one century they composed half of the population of Greece and Peloponnesus was their main objective. What greeks are we talking here?

[Scholarios]

The only reason Peloponnesians and Bulgarians are similar is because the latter is still predominantly native genetically. The Slavic migrations started from the core of today's Ukraine and Belarus, which is why these populations were used as proxies.

The former may be true, though I am not 100% sure that is the only reason. The latter I think may also be a little more complex. For instance, I believe YDNA str testing shows Slavic ydna (r1a m458) matching with Polish samples. (also the Greek I2 does as I have shown a few weeks ago) In addition, I think IBD studies seem to indicate Eastern Europe, including the Balkans seem to share a very large number of common ancestors in the past 1500 years. Maybe this comes to only 5-10% Slavic genetic background in the Morea, not sure. But if the takeaway is that Slavic-speaking Bulgarians who were 50% Thracian , 40% Proto-Slav, and 10% Goth ended up populating sectors of the Peloponese , some people might consider this study splitting hairs.

[catgeorge]

Sikeliot, try to understand what happened in this region and in the whole Greece. First was the plague of Justinian, who changed the course of history of Europe Asia and Africa. Later arrived the Slavs who wiped what was left from the plague. But the life was not easy for this slavs, there was an permanent epidemi for centuries until when the pandemi exploded again in the VIII century. Here is the return of Byzantines. They replaced this slavs with populations from Asia Minor, there was an exchange of populations. Here start a period of relative prosperity for Greece and Peloponnesus. All this until the fourth crusade. The game restarted again. Greece became again the battlefield. From one side the crusaders and other states ruled by westerners. From the other side Byzantines who wanted to recuperate using turkish mercenaries, but later turks started to play their game. From North arrived Tsar Dushan. Wars, famine until the epidemi, The Black Death reappeared and this was the most terrible plague in the history. In this moment start the migration of Albanians in Greece. In one century they composed half of the population of Greece and Peloponnesus was their main objective. What greeks are we talking here?

You and your plagues

It is thought that Zeus struck the Greeks with the Plague in 6th century because they abandoned him (25 million dead)
..and God struck Western Europe with the Black death for the fourth crusade (200 million dead)

[Coolguy1]

The former may be true, though I am not 100% sure that is the only reason. The latter I think may also be a little more complex. For instance, I believe YDNA str testing shows Slavic ydna (r1a m458) matching with Polish samples. (also the Greek I2 does as I have shown a few weeks ago) In addition, I think IBD studies seem to indicate Eastern Europe, including the Balkans seem to share a very large number of common ancestors in the past 1500 years. Maybe this comes to only 5-10% Slavic genetic background in the Morea, not sure. But if the takeaway is that Slavic-speaking Bulgarians who were 50% Thracian , 40% Proto-Slav, and 10% Goth ended up populating sectors of the Peloponese , some people might consider this study splitting hairs.

One important thing to note is that according to the study. Peloponnesians and southern Italians share nearly 95% of their ancestry on average, which means that the former contain the majority of the Greek profile. If the same study were to be done on southern Italians, no doubt Slavic population will pop up as sharing ancestry with them, albeit to a smaller extent than Greeks. Another important note is that the ancestry shared with Slavs seems to be much older than that shared with Italians, the segments are significantly shorter for Slavs, which may indicate that some of this ancestry is probably form before Indo-European groups dispersed.

Do you have any other IBD studies or results?

[Sikeliot]

If the same study were to be done on southern Italians, no doubt Slavic population will pop up as sharing ancestry with them, albeit to a smaller extent than Greeks.

I actually doubt this. If the study was done on Sicilians or Calabrese, there would be almost no IBD sharing with NE Europe. You'd probably see something similar to that of the Deep Mani sample, especially if you went into inland Sicily which never had any significant Norman, Lombard, or Greek input.

[Coolguy1]

I actually doubt this. If the study was done on Sicilians or Calabrese, there would be almost no IBD sharing with NE Europe. You'd probably see something similar to that of the Deep Mani sample, especially if you went into inland Sicily which never had any significant Norman, Lombard, or Greek input.

But IBD sharing with Maniots and Italians is low, whereas with other Peloponnesians its very high. All modern Europeans share ancestry with each other, even Greeks with Basques. No doubt southern Italians share ancestry with Slavs, probably from a very long time ago and in small amounts, (0-5%)