Which part of South Italy is the most "unmixed" -- best representation of pre-Greek population?

[Inquizzzitor]

Well, the question, too is whether the pre-Greek population in southern Italy and Sicily was Pelasgian - there's lots of evidence pointing to this as the case. In other words even the pre-Greek people came from more or less the same Aegean orbit as the Greeks, and "the Greeks" may have grown out of this group of pre-Indo European Mediterranean stock just like the aboriginal inhabitants of Italy.

The connection with the Sea Peoples - Shekelesh/Sicily and Shardana/Sardinia, is also interesting. The Philistines are considered to be part of the Sea Peoples and there's evidence of Mycenean activity in Italy as well.

[wvwvw]

Well, the question, too is whether the pre-Greek population in southern Italy and Sicily was Pelasgian - there's lots of evidence pointing to this as the case. In other words even the pre-Greek people came from more or less the same Aegean orbit as the Greeks, and "the Greeks" may have grown out of this group of pre-Indo European Mediterranean stock just like the aboriginal inhabitants of Italy.

The connection with the Sea Peoples - Shekelesh/Sicily and Shardana/Sardinia, is also interesting. The Philistines are considered to be part of the Sea Peoples and there's evidence of Mycenean activity in Italy as well.

Only the third major Italian migration took place in the 8th century and this was after the first Massena War whereas the first tow were at the time of the Deukalion Flood and after the capture of Troy in the 15th and 12th centuries BC respectively. And before these there was the Minoan colonisation going back to 3000 BC.

The identity of the Sea Peoples is very well know. All their tribal affiliations are known for ancient historical texts.

Inscription of Ramses III

In the eighth year of his reign 1175 BC Ramesses III wrote

"The foreign countries made a conspiracy in their islands. All at once the lands were removed and scattered in the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alishiya on, being cut off. A camp was set up in one place Amurru. They desolated its people, and
its land was like that which had never come into being. They were coming forward toward Egypt, while the flame was prepared before them. [b]Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Skekelesh, Denyen, and Weshesh, lands united. ]They laid their hands upon the land as far as the circuit of the
earth, their hearts confident and trusting: "Our plans will succeed"...

The Peleset were based in Cyprus and were Pelasgian Greeks from Arkadia led by Agapenor. Peleset = Pelasgians = Arcadians + Athenians under Agapenor and Demophon both of whom conqured Cyprus as did Teucer.

The Tjeker were also based in Cyprus and were Greeks from Salamis (Greece) led by Teuker the son of Telamon and Hesione the daughter of Priam form Troy. Teucer was expelled from Salamis in Greece which was occupied by Pelagians and Aeolians and founded Salamis in Cyprus.

The Denyen were the Danai who came form Argos and were lead be Meneleus who also led his own people the Sped or Spartans.

The Weshesh were the Ahhiwesha or the Akhaiwoi of Homers Illiad and were therefore the Achaeans who were led by Meneleus.

And the Skekelesh were Greeks from the Cyklades who came to Troy with Idomenes the king of Crete but were attached to Meneleus who history documents (Herodotus/Apollodorus et al) was expelled from Egypt by Theoclymenos (Ramses III) 8 year after the end of Trojen War in 1175 BC.

The Sherden were Sardinians and a Greek colony founded by Aristaeus to son-in-law of Cadmus in 1420 BC which was recolonised by the Athenians under Iolaus in about 1220 BC.

Pausanius makes it clear that Sardos came before the Cadmians with Aristaeus and that the Trojans came there centuries later at the time of the capture of Troy. Sherden acted as mercenaries of the Egyptians in the Battle of Kadesh, 1299 BC.

[Sikeliot]

In other words even the pre-Greek people came from more or less the same Aegean orbit as the Greeks, and "the Greeks" may have grown out of this group of pre-Indo European Mediterranean stock just like the aboriginal inhabitants of Italy.

This is what I think, though I then think Greeks were more Indo-Europeanized than southern Italians (higher NE European is evidence of this), and then this difference shows today. That, or more Phoenician/Levantine in Sicily.

[Tauromachos]

Simple: that part of Italy wasn't colonized by ancient greeks

Anyway I don't see much similarities between Sicilians/Calabrians and Greeks, they look extremely different IMHO.

Sure you must be an expert on Greeks and Italians...

[Tauromachos]

Sardinians...
?

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Sardinians...
?

Which is not actually considered Southern or Northern, but rather apart. Now it is genetically speaking true. Sardinians are in a way the basal approximate for what the population of Italy was like in pre Phoenician times. Now it is important to note that phoenicians brought the form of alphabet that our modern language writing is built on, so when we are speaking about pre Phoenician times we are literally speaking about pre history. It is a time of which we don't know a massive amount about but what we do know is that genetically phoenicians left little genetic impact, although culturally their contributions were significant.

[Tauromachos]

I don't think the cultural contribution of the phoenicians is so significant,they were for the most a nation of crafty trades man who founded several colonies across the Mediteranian.
Thats all...

Everything else is hype and overrated in my point of view .....
What are their contributions to math,philosophy,architecture,literature,poetry e.c.t


Wether the Greeks took their Alphabet from the Phoenicians is disputable,what are the written documents of the Phoenicians
in this Alphabet except a few trade contracts....


Significant Pre-Greek cultures in the Mediteranian where the Egyptians firts of all...

Significant Cultures in the Middle-East where Sumerians,Babylonians,Persians and Assyrians..

The Etruscans where another people in the Mediteranian and could be related to the Pre-Hellenic Minoans "Eteocretans" of Crete
and the ancient aegean Island Population in the Cyclades.
Or perhabs to people in Asia Minor,like the Trojans

[SardiniaAtlantis]

I don't think the cultural contribution of the phoenicians is so significant,they were for the most a nation of crafty trades man who founded several colonies across the Mediteranian.
Thats all...

Everything else is hype and overrated in my point of view .....
What are their contributions to math,philosophy,architecture,literature,poetry e.c.t


Wether the Greeks took their Alphabet from the Phoenicians is disputable,what are the written documents of the Phoenicians
in this Alphabet except a few trade contracts....


Significant Pre-Greek cultures in the Mediteranian where the Egyptians firts of all...

Significant Cultures in the Middle-East where Sumerians,Babylonians,Persians and Assyrians..

The Etruscans where another people in the Mediteranian and could be related to the Pre-Hellenic Minoans "Eteocretans" of Crete
and the ancient aegean Island Population in the Cyclades.
Or perhabs to people in Asia Minor,like the Trojans

Fair enough, the point is that the more we get into pre Phoenician times the more speculative the information we have on the populations of Italy and their origins becomes.

[catgeorge]

Yes, I do think West Greece is similar to South Greece.

[Tauromachos]

Simple: that part of Italy wasn't colonized by ancient greeks

Anyway I don't see much similarities between Sicilians/Calabrians and Greeks, they look extremely different IMHO.

How do Greeks look like in your opinion?
Sicily was full of ancient Greek colonies
Greek people that had colonies there were Ionians,Acheaens and Dorians.
Have a look at the map in this link http://explorethemed.com/SicilyClass.asp?c=1
It shows all colonies

Phoenician colonies are visible there in the Westernmost part and in the North West of the Island which concurs with what Sikeliot says that
Phoenician influence even today is strongest in this parts of the Island.

As for Central Sicily it is likely that Phoenicians ,Greeks and Italics intermingled there more and blended into one another,than in the other parts.
No matter what todays Sicilians or Greeks are and look like,these things are facts.