Boxplots of european ancestry in several Latin American Countries

[Argentano]

Afro-Colombians would score less Euro and lower the average.

Are you going to do Argentine's genetic average using only 70% of the country's pop?

Like i said before you can't use Mex-Americans DNA results for the whole of Mexico since West-Central and Northern Mexico make up 90% of the immigration to the USA. That's an example.

But yes you are right that having 10% of the sample (Afro colombians) in the 0-30% euro range will change the average of the colombian boxplot.

[RMuller]

Argentano said But yes you are right that having 10% of the sample (Afro colombians) in the 0-30% euro range will change the average of the colombian boxplot.

I have posted this before on the Latin American genetic studies. It has alot of samples from Colombia.

Small sample of 24 people from Bogota and other regions of Southern and coastal Colombia.

[RMuller]

ARGENTANO said Regarding Argentina i am posting a study that has 18% of the samples from Salta (most amerindian region of the country) even though Salta has 3% of the populaltion of Argentina. Still, its better than nothing.

You shouldn't of used it since Salta is 6 x over represented in the Argentinian studies.

[Argentano]

You shouldn't of used it since Salta is 6 x over represented in the Argentinian studies.

But i still think the boxplots show some patterns. For example Argentina has a very heterogeneous sample as a result of recent euro immigration. Chile in the other hand is more homogeneous because they are colonial. Even when the samples may not be perfect.

I find interesting that most people in all the boxplots are over 40% euro. There is a misconception that "many latinos are full black or full amerindian" but this is rarely the case in genetic studies. Dominican Republic for example seems to be just mulatto.

[alnortedelsur]

Yes northern mexico can be 60% euro and southern mexico 40% euro. Thats why the average is 50% euro.Still northern mexico majority scores below 70% euro.

But Northern/Western Mexico are a big region, we are not talking about a small micro-regional exception, but about a big region (like a half or more of the whole Mexican territory), and my point is that in those areas of Mexico, as well as in the other Latin American regions/countries that I mention, the Euro input is considerable, not low, and only concentrated in upper classes as some people stereotype all Latin America (except Argentina, Uruguay, and maybe southern Brazil) to be like. Even if most people in there are less than 70% Euro, 60% Euro as a whole for a huge region, is considerably more Euro than the stereotype about most of Latin America being filled with blacks, Amerindians, and very dark mixed people with very little Euro contribution.

I put brazil in a different bag. They are heterogeneous like Argentina or Cuba. You have whites, mulattos and blacks.

Venezuela is very heterogeneous too, and Venezuelans can vary from griffes to whites and castizos, with everything in between, at least that you pretend that most Venezuelans are uniformly triracial.

I have repeated ad nauseum that the black admixed Chavista/madurista supporters from the slums in Caracas and other large Venezuelan cities located close to the coasts, don't represent the full picture of the whole Venezuelan racial make up. And I have also repeated ad nauseum that in most inner Venezuelan regions, the general population (including the lower class) gets more mestizo and less black admixed, on average than the lower classes of some coastal regions. And that there are even coastal states like Nueva Esparta, Falcon, most of Zulia, and to some extent, some parts of coastal Anzoategui, where, due to their semi-arid climate, that was not inviting for the massive slave trade in colonial times, the general population is mostly mestizo, with way much more Euro/Amerindian input than SSA input in their general population.

Yeah im not an expert on Venezuela, still i doubt majority of middle class looks like the people i posted. If majority of Venezuelan middle class would look like the people i posted then venezuela would be a castizo country.

I didn't say that most Venezuelans are castizos and whites, I was just talking about the Venezuelan middle class, that is not that large, proportionally speaking, as the middle classes of countries like Uruguay, Argentina or Chile.

Precisely, you find more people who are 85% Euro or more in the Venezuelan middle class than in the upper classes (that is mostly made up of heavily Euro mixed colonial Venezuelans), because most of the European immigrants that settled in Venezuela between 1950s-1970s were not rich people, but refugees who went to Venezuela, as we say in Spanish (con una mano adelante y otra detras), running away from poverty or from political prosecution in Europe, as my Spanish grandfather, who was not a rich guy, but a Republican fleeing from Franco Regime. Most of those immigrants who in many cases came poor, ended up, through hard work, being part of a growing middle class. Some of them might have got rich, but most of them just progressed into being middle class.

I remind you that Venezuela received about 1 million of European immigrants (mostly Spanish, Italian and Portuguese) during the mid of the 20th century, most of whom settled and left offspring in Venezuela, and in a time when most people had at least 2 or 3 children, or even more. Then you're saying that most heavily Euro people as those Venezuelans in Argentina from your pictures, are mostly present in the upper-middle and upper classes. Do you see that absurdity of that?? For that claim of you to be true, Venezuela would have to have a huge upper-middle and upper class, which is something that doesn't happen in any country.

You are not talking about a traditional colonial Latin American country, that didn't receive any important European immigration, like if you were talking about Dominican Republic, Panama, Guatemala, El Salvador, Ecuador, or Bolivia; you are talking about the Latin American country that received the third largest, numerically speaking (I know that Uruguay, Cuba and Puerto Rico are proportionally more Euro than Venezuela, but I am talking about raw numbers) European immigration in all Latin America, just after Argentina and Brazil.

And I am not even saying that ALL middle class Venezuelans are whites and castizos, but a high percentage of them (lets say 2/3 or 3/4 of this middle class) are whites and Euro mestizos (including harnizos). I know what I talk about. I left Venezuela a while ago, and I don't know how the proportions might have changed due to the Venezuelan middle to upper class exodus of these last years, but I talk as how it was when I was in there, and about how Venezuela has always been until not that long ago (before that exodus).

My numbers are based on genetic studies. If Colombian genetic studies tend to have 15%-25% of the sample over 70% euro, and you told me Colombia is more heterogeneous than Venezuela, 15% seems reasonable. Maybe 20% but 30% seems to high to me.

You didn't even say 15% but between 10-15%, and those low percentages (let alone only 10%) of people in the 70-100% Euro range, for a country that received about 1 million of Europeans when it only had around 5 millions of inhabitants during the 1950s, are a complete joke.

We also have to take into consideration that on top of it (even without including that recent European immigration), most of the Venezuelan Andes (that make up around 10% of the Venezuelan population) might be as highly Euro as the most Euro regions of the Colombian Andes. Not saying with it, that most Andean Venezuelans are in the 70-100% Euro range, but a good portion of them, for sure. And not only that, but there are also other Venezuelan states/regions with good numbers of Euro-mestizos, like the state of Lara, in central western Venezuela, and the outskirts of the Andes in the states of Portuguesa and Barinas.

My Venezuelan dad, is not even from the Andes nor from the outskirts of the Andes, but from the east side of Barinas state, and my dad could be at least 80% Euro, judging by his looks. So, you can also find heavily Euro people (even if minority) in many other parts of the interior of Venezuela, not only in the Andes and adjacent areas.

Also, you misunderstood what I said when comparing Colombia and Venezuela. I didn't say that Colombians are strictly white/mestizos or black/mulattoes, and that nearly all Venezuelans are triracials. There are also many triracials in Colombia, and there are also many people who are strictly white or mestizo (in diverse proportions) in Venezuela. What I said is that while there are more people in Colombia who fall strictly in the strictly mestizo category (including indo-mestizos, mestizos, harnizos and castizos), or who are more strictly black or mulatto, in Venezuela, on the other hand, the limits between one extreme and the other are more blurry, and there are more Venezuelan people who are not that African or mulatto, but who are not that strictly mestizo either, but more like something in between, but that doesn't mean that there are not also many Venezuelans out there who are strictly mestizo, harnizos and castizos. Then, Venezuela is not homogeneous, neither in its racial composition, nor in the geographic distribution of its different races. It is as heterogeneous as Colombia and Brazil can be, just that the limits between the different racial groups in Venezuela, are more blurry, that's it.

I also said, however, that despite being more mixed than Colombia, Venezuela has a very similar overall European, Amerindian and African input as Colombia, which means that Colombia is NOT more Euro than Venezuela. Then, I don't know from where do you get that if in Colombia 15-25% of the sample tend to be over 70% Euro, in Venezuela the percentage of people over 70% Euro has to be lower than in Colombia, and more, taking into consideration that Colombia didn't receive a massive recent European immigration as the one that Venezuela received. And I am not even saying that Venezuela is more Euro than Colombia, but it is not less Euro either.

Para Terminar: I don't know if I am right in the percentage that I gave for Venezuelans in the 70-100% Euro range. I admit that it was a wild guess, and maybe is not that high as 28-30% of the Venezuelan population, as I said, but they are not less than 20% of the Venezuelan population, for sure.

[Argentano]

But Northern/Western Mexico are a big region, we are not talking about a small micro-regional exception, but about a big region (like a half or more of the whole Mexican territory), and my point is that in those areas of Mexico, as well as in the other Latin American regions/countries that I mention, the Euro input is considerable, not low, and only concentrated in upper classes as some people stereotype all Latin America (except Argentina, Uruguay, and maybe southern Brazil) to be like. Even if most people in there are less than 70% Euro, 60% Euro as a whole for a huge region, is considerably more Euro than the stereotype about most of Latin America being filled with blacks, Amerindians, and very dark mixed people with very little Euro contribution.



Venezuela is very heterogeneous too, and Venezuelans can vary from griffes to whites and castizos, with everything in between, at least that you pretend that most Venezuelans are uniformly triracial.

I have repeated ad nauseum that the black admixed Chavista/madurista supporters from the slums in Caracas and other large Venezuelan cities located close to the coasts, don't represent the full picture of the whole Venezuelan racial make up. And I have also repeated ad nauseum that in most inner Venezuelan regions, the general population (including the lower class) gets more mestizo and less black admixed, on average than the lower classes of some coastal regions. And that there are even coastal states like Nueva Esparta, Falcon, most of Zulia, and to some extent, some parts of coastal Anzoategui, where, due to their semi-arid climate, that was not inviting for the massive slave trade in colonial times, the general population is mostly mestizo, with way much more Euro/Amerindian input than SSA input in their general population.



I didn't say that most Venezuelans are castizos and whites, I was just talking about the Venezuelan middle class, that is not that large, proportionally speaking, as the middle classes of countries like Uruguay, Argentina or Chile.

Precisely, you find more people who are 85% Euro or more in the Venezuelan middle class than in the upper classes (that is mostly made up of heavily Euro mixed colonial Venezuelans), because most of the European immigrants that settled in Venezuela between 1950s-1970s were not rich people, but refugees who went to Venezuela, as we say in Spanish (con una mano adelante y otra detras), running away from poverty or from political prosecution in Europe, as my Spanish grandfather, who was not a rich guy, but a Republican fleeing from Franco Regime. Most of those immigrants who in many cases came poor, ended up, through hard work, being part of a growing middle class. Some of them might have got rich, but most of them just progressed into being middle class.

I remind you that Venezuela received about 1 million of European immigrants (mostly Spanish, Italian and Portuguese) during the mid of the 20th century, most of whom settled and left offspring in Venezuela, and in a time when most people had at least 2 or 3 children, or even more. Then you're saying that most heavily Euro people as those Venezuelans in Argentina from your pictures, are mostly present in the upper-middle and upper classes. Do you see that absurdity of that?? For that claim of you to be true, Venezuela would have to have a huge upper-middle and upper class, which is something that doesn't happen in any country.

You are not talking about a traditional colonial Latin American country, that didn't receive any important European immigration, like if you were talking about Dominican Republic, Panama, Guatemala, El Salvador, Ecuador, or Bolivia; you are talking about the Latin American country that received the third largest, numerically speaking (I know that Uruguay, Cuba and Puerto Rico are proportionally more Euro than Venezuela, but I am talking about raw numbers) European immigration in all Latin America, just after Argentina and Brazil.

And I am not even saying that ALL middle class Venezuelans are whites and castizos, but a high percentage of them (lets say 2/3 or 3/4 of this middle class) are whites and Euro mestizos (including harnizos). I know what I talk about. I left Venezuela a while ago, and I don't know how the proportions might have changed due to the Venezuelan middle to upper class exodus of these last years, but I talk as how it was when I was in there, and about how Venezuela has always been until not that long ago (before that exodus).




You didn't even say 15% but between 10-15%, and those low percentages (let alone only 10%) of people in the 70-100% Euro range, for a country that received about 1 million of Europeans when it only had around 5 millions of inhabitants during the 1950s, are a complete joke.

We also have to take into consideration that on top of it (even without including that recent European immigration), most of the Venezuelan Andes (that make up around 10% of the Venezuelan population) might be as highly Euro as the most Euro regions of the Colombian Andes. Not saying with it, that most Andean Venezuelans are in the 70-100% Euro range, but a good portion of them, for sure. And not only that, but there are also other Venezuelan states/regions with good numbers of Euro-mestizos, like the state of Lara, in central western Venezuela, and the outskirts of the Andes in the states of Portuguesa and Barinas.

My Venezuelan dad, is not even from the Andes nor from the outskirts of the Andes, but from the east side of Barinas state, and my dad could be at least 80% Euro, judging by his looks. So, you can also find heavily Euro people (even if minority) in many other parts of the interior of Venezuela, not only in the Andes and adjacent areas.

Also, you misunderstood what I said when comparing Colombia and Venezuela. I didn't say that Colombians are strictly white/mestizos or black/mulattoes, and that nearly all Venezuelans are triracials. There are also many triracials in Colombia, and there are also many people who are strictly white or mestizo (in diverse proportions) in Venezuela. What I said is that while there are more people in Colombia who fall strictly in the strictly mestizo category (including indo-mestizos, mestizos, harnizos and castizos), or who are more strictly black mulatto, in Venezuela, on the other hand, the limits between one extreme and the other are more blurry, and there are more Venezuelan people who are not that African or mulatto, but who are not that strictly mestizo either, but more like something in between, but that doesn't mean that there are not also many Venezuelans out there who are strictly mestizo, harnizos and castizos. Then, Venezuela is not homogeneous, neither in its racial composition, nor in the geographic distribution of its different races. It is as heterogeneous as Colombia and Brazil can be, just that the limits between the different racial groups in Venezuela, are more blurry, that's it.

I also said, however, that despite being more mixed than Colombia, Venezuela has a very similar overall European, Amerindian and African input as Colombia, which means that Colombia is NOT more Euro than Venezuela. Then, I don't know from where do you get that if in Colombia 15-25% of the sample tend to be over 70% Euro, in Venezuela the percentage of people over 70% Euro has to be lower than in Colombia, and more, taking into consideration that Colombia didn't receive a massive recent European immigration as Venezuela did. And I am not even saying that Venezuela is more Euro than Colombia, but it is not less Euro either.

Para Terminar: I don't know if I am right in the percentage that I gave for Venezuelans in the 70-100% Euro range. I admit that it was a wild guess, and maybe is not that high as 28-30% of the Venezuelan population, as I said, but they are not less than 20% of the Venezuelan population, for sure.

1)Northern mexico is more european than southern mexico. Around 60% euro. Mostly mestizos/harnizos it seems.

2)In 1950 Venezuela had a population of 5.034.838 and 126.966 of them were european born (2.5% of the population).
In 1971 Venezuela had a population of 10.721.522 and 329.850 of them were european born (3.0% of the population).

3)In most LATAM genetic studies , outside Brazil,Cuba,Uruguay and Argentina, people over 70% euro tend to be a small minority (5-10%). Just Colombia (Paisa Region) and Puerto Rico seem to have a good %. Maybe Venezuela is closer to them, i cant know because there havent been tests there.

[Carlito's Way]

what big study did you use for Mexican Americans? the biggest ones have been from AncestryDNA and 23andme, which you never used and those tend to be a lot more accurate
theres also a bigger one from Northern California and they came out being harnizos

either you are cherry picking the studies you like or you are picking the wrong ones

[alnortedelsur]

1)Northern mexico is more european than southern mexico. Around 60% euro. Mostly mestizos/harnizos it seems.

2)In 1950 Venezuela had a population of 5.034.838 and 126.966 of them were european born (2.5% of the population).
In 1971 Venezuela had a population of 10.721.522 and 329.850 of them were european born (3.0% of the populatiion).

That's a good info and thanks for it,and I would appreciate if you provide the links. But keep in mind that in 1950 the European immigration to Venezuela just started. The million of Europeans that settled in Venezuela, didn't come all at once in 1950, but they did it progressively between 1950 and the late 70s. Also, most of those immigrants had at least 2 or 3 Venezuelan born kids, if not more. So those statistics don't count many full Euro, or mostly Euro Venezuelan born people, who were kids of those European immigrants.

3)In most LATAM genetic studies , outside Brazil,Cuba,Uruguay and Argentina, people over 70% euro tend to be a small minority (5-10%). Just Colombia (Paisa Region) and Puerto Rico seem to have a good %. Maybe Venezuela is closer to them, i cant know because there havent been tests there.

Ah OK, I didn't know it was that low in most of Latin America, out of those countries. But yeah, I am sure that in Venezuela, their percentage must not be that far from Puerto Rico and Colombia.

[BirdMan]

Very, very interesting. I agree with everything you have said. It's particularly important to know the distribution that underlies an average and these boxplots are perfect for doing just that. As you say, the division between the more homogeneous "colonial" populations and those that received substantial recent immigration is notable.

I can't really comment for places other than Puerto Rico, but those numbers definitely seem consistent with the studies done on Puerto Ricans in the US. Stateside PRs seem to resemble people from the San Juan Metro area in terms of admixture. People from other regions, particularly the East and the West will have pretty different distributions.

[BirdMan]

3)In most LATAM genetic studies , outside Brazil,Cuba,Uruguay and Argentina, people over 70% euro tend to be a small minority (5-10%). Just Colombia (Paisa Region) and Puerto Rico seem to have a good %. Maybe Venezuela is closer to them, i cant know because there havent been tests there.

I think 70+% European people are the overwhelming majority in Western Puerto Rico. On the rest of the island, I think that they are somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 of the population. The exception, of course, is some towns on the Eastern coast which have hardly any people in that range.

I think this is a fair approximation for the Euro distribution across Puerto Rico:



I made it by inverting the African distribution from the Via study.

That inverted distribution showed the non-African % distribution for various regions in Puerto Rico.

I then shifted the whole distribution down 14% to account for the Native admixture, leaving only the European ancestry as the remainder.

It's obviously not perfect, but I think it's the best approximation available at this point.