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Some of it probably is, but expulsed muslims spread out all over North Africa, many are in Tunisia for example. But I don't know much about it.Originally Posted by Odin von Ossetien
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This one is +20% West African like all the others, he just score more "N.African" which obviously has SSA already, because he s Berber and that's what the source of the "N.African" is based on. It's in the NE Africa as well.
T691712
K6
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.34
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.94
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.87
Natufian 45.17
Sub_Saharan 22.69
K7
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 23.18
East_Eurasian 1.28
West_African 0.86
East_African 23.35
ENF 51.33
As long as you won't understand how this basics of admixture works, there s no point running calculators at such high K.
Same applies to the one who supposedly score 6% on K36, T735750:
Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 9.93
Ancestral_South_Eurasian -
East_Asian 0.33
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.89
Natufian 45.70
Sub_Saharan 21.15
Very average for N.Morocco
The Algerian with 26% on K36, M303344
Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 6.03
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.23
East_Asian 1.97
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 15.26
Natufian 32.58
Sub_Saharan 43.94
rather far south / recent sub sahara
Last edited by Petalpusher; 04-05-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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If the NE African is SSA too, then K13 is quite accurate.
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Do not thank me
My results
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 West_Med 26.76
2 East_Med 24.55
3 North_Atlantic 15.07
4 Red_Sea 14.79
5 Sub-Saharan 10.31
6 Northeast_African 7.27
7 East_Asian 0.73
8 Oceanian 0.51
9 Siberian 0.01
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite_Berber 6.51
2 Algerian 7.17
3 Moroccan 7.92
4 Tunisian 8.56
5 Algerian_Jewish 19.68
6 West_Sicilian 20.73
7 Libyan_Jewish 21.04
8 Sephardic_Jewish 21.84
9 Tunisian_Jewish 21.88
10 East_Sicilian 21.97
11 Italian_Jewish 22.04
12 South_Italian 22.6
13 Ashkenazi 23.01
14 Tuscan 23.38
15 Egyptian 23.77
16 Central_Greek 24.2
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.24
18 Greek_Thessaly 25.74
19 North_Italian 26.44
20 Bedouin 27.39
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Mozabite_Berber + 11.9% French_Basque @ 2.87
2 85.2% Mozabite_Berber + 14.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.99
3 83.9% Mozabite_Berber + 16.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.16
4 84.7% Mozabite_Berber + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.23
5 85.4% Mozabite_Berber + 14.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.27
6 86.3% Mozabite_Berber + 13.7% Southwest_French @ 3.31
7 84.8% Mozabite_Berber + 15.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.31
8 83.5% Mozabite_Berber + 16.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.32
9 84.3% Mozabite_Berber + 15.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.4
10 84.4% Mozabite_Berber + 15.6% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.53
11 84.9% Mozabite_Berber + 15.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.54
12 85.6% Mozabite_Berber + 14.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.56
13 84.3% Mozabite_Berber + 15.7% Portuguese @ 3.61
14 84.9% Mozabite_Berber + 15.1% Sardinian @ 3.8
15 83.3% Mozabite_Berber + 16.7% North_Italian @ 3.85
16 87.7% Algerian + 12.3% French_Basque @ 3.85
17 83.4% Algerian + 16.6% Sardinian @ 4.05
18 85.1% Tunisian + 14.9% French_Basque @ 4.07
19 88.1% Mozabite_Berber + 11.9% French @ 4.28
20 82.4% Mozabite_Berber + 17.6% Tuscan @ 4.3
North Moroccan/Riffian
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.79
2 West_Med 22.76
3 Red_Sea 15.32
4 North_Atlantic 13.18
5 Northeast_African 9.42
6 Sub-Saharan 9.4
7 East_Asian 1.2
8 Siberian 0.52
9 Amerindian 0.42
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 2.87
2 Mozabite_Berber 4.62
3 Tunisian 4.69
4 Moroccan 5.84
5 Libyan_Jewish 18.31
6 Algerian_Jewish 18.38
7 Egyptian 18.88
8 Tunisian_Jewish 19.41
9 Sephardic_Jewish 20.44
10 Italian_Jewish 20.63
11 West_Sicilian 21.21
12 East_Sicilian 21.68
13 Ashkenazi 21.73
14 South_Italian 22.47
15 Bedouin 23.56
16 Central_Greek 24.19
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.56
18 Tuscan 24.76
19 Jordanian 25.5
20 Palestinian 26.09
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.9% Algerian + 6.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.61
2 93.2% Algerian + 6.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.64
3 93.3% Algerian + 6.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.67
4 95.3% Algerian + 4.7% French_Basque @ 1.68
5 93.7% Algerian + 6.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.69
6 93.7% Algerian + 6.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 1.71
7 93.2% Algerian + 6.8% Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.73
8 93.6% Algerian + 6.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 1.76
9 94% Algerian + 6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.78
10 94.2% Algerian + 5.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.79
11 93.4% Algerian + 6.6% Portuguese @ 1.8
12 93.6% Algerian + 6.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 1.82
13 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Southwest_French @ 1.82
14 92.9% Algerian + 7.1% North_Italian @ 1.88
15 92.2% Algerian + 7.8% Tuscan @ 1.96
16 94.9% Algerian + 5.1% French @ 2
17 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Southwest_English @ 2.12
18 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Southeast_English @ 2.15
19 95.8% Algerian + 4.2% South_Dutch @ 2.16
20 96.4% Algerian + 3.6% West_Scottish @ 2.16
NorthWestern Algerian :
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.21
2 West_Med 21.9
3 Red_Sea 16.4
4 North_Atlantic 13.55
5 Sub-Saharan 8.95
6 Northeast_African 8.86
7 East_Asian 0.61
8 Oceanian 0.38
9 Amerindian 0.13
10 Siberian 0.01
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 3.54
2 Tunisian 4.74
3 Mozabite_Berber 5.89
4 Moroccan 6.77
5 Libyan_Jewish 17.41
6 Egyptian 17.81
7 Algerian_Jewish 17.85
8 Tunisian_Jewish 18.49
9 Sephardic_Jewish 19.7
10 Italian_Jewish 19.94
11 West_Sicilian 21.09
12 Ashkenazi 21.26
13 East_Sicilian 21.46
14 South_Italian 22.24
15 Bedouin 22.45
16 Central_Greek 24.03
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.39
18 Jordanian 24.59
19 Tuscan 24.77
20 Palestinian 24.96
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.8% Algerian + 10.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.76
2 91.9% Algerian + 8.1% Tuscan @ 2.8
3 90.1% Algerian + 9.9% Italian_Jewish @ 2.8
4 91% Algerian + 9% West_Sicilian @ 2.87
5 94.1% Algerian + 5.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.88
6 94.8% Algerian + 5.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.9
7 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.92
8 93.5% Algerian + 6.5% North_Italian @ 2.92
9 92.4% Algerian + 7.6% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.93
10 94.1% Algerian + 5.9% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.93
11 94.6% Algerian + 5.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.94
12 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.95
13 94.2% Algerian + 5.8% Portuguese @ 2.95
14 94.4% Algerian + 5.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.95
15 94.8% Algerian + 5.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.95
16 90.4% Algerian + 9.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.96
17 94.6% Algerian + 5.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.99
18 95.4% Algerian + 4.6% French @ 3
19 95.2% Algerian + 4.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.03
20 92% Algerian + 8% Ashkenazi @ 3.03
NorthWestern Algerian :
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.4
2 West_Med 25.02
3 North_Atlantic 13.2
4 Red_Sea 11.91
5 Sub-Saharan 9.55
6 Northeast_African 8.45
7 Baltic 3.29
8 Oceanian 0.53
9 East_Asian 0.43
10 Amerindian 0.23
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 5.96
2 Tunisian 6.35
3 Mozabite_Berber 6.44
4 Moroccan 8.17
5 Algerian_Jewish 17
6 Libyan_Jewish 18.51
7 West_Sicilian 18.9
8 Tunisian_Jewish 19.47
9 Italian_Jewish 19.57
10 East_Sicilian 19.59
11 Ashkenazi 19.84
12 Sephardic_Jewish 19.86
13 South_Italian 20.54
14 Egyptian 21.31
15 Central_Greek 21.93
16 Tuscan 22.24
17 Italian_Abruzzo 22.59
18 Greek_Thessaly 23.24
19 Bedouin 25.58
20 North_Italian 25.87
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.8% Tunisian + 14.2% Southwest_French @ 2.3
2 85.2% Tunisian + 14.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.46
3 88.6% Tunisian + 11.4% French_Basque @ 2.62
4 84.5% Tunisian + 15.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.62
5 84% Tunisian + 16% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.63
6 84.8% Tunisian + 15.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.67
7 85.7% Tunisian + 14.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.69
8 84.1% Tunisian + 15.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.75
9 84.6% Tunisian + 15.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.79
10 79.2% Mozabite_Berber + 20.8% Tuscan @ 2.79
11 85.2% Tunisian + 14.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.8
12 83.6% Tunisian + 16.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.8
13 83.8% Tunisian + 16.2% Portuguese @ 2.82
14 84.3% Tunisian + 15.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.86
15 81.8% Mozabite_Berber + 18.2% North_Italian @ 2.97
16 76.7% Mozabite_Berber + 23.3% West_Sicilian @ 3.08
17 82.3% Tunisian + 17.7% North_Italian @ 3.11
18 80.5% Mozabite_Berber + 19.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.2
19 83.7% Algerian + 16.3% North_Italian @ 3.22
20 86.6% Algerian + 13.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.44
Algerian chawi (NorthEastern Algeria) :
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.95
2 West_Med 19.96
3 Red_Sea 16.78
4 Northeast_African 12.26
5 North_Atlantic 11.93
6 Sub-Saharan 9.46
7 Siberian 0.66
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 3.57
2 Tunisian 5.35
3 Mozabite_Berber 5.97
4 Moroccan 6.28
5 Egyptian 16.16
6 Libyan_Jewish 18.8
7 Tunisian_Jewish 20.14
8 Algerian_Jewish 20.21
9 Sephardic_Jewish 22
10 Bedouin 22.04
11 Italian_Jewish 22.29
12 Ashkenazi 23.33
13 East_Sicilian 23.69
14 West_Sicilian 23.77
15 Jordanian 24.34
16 South_Italian 24.68
17 Palestinian 25.09
18 Syrian 26.27
19 Central_Greek 26.3
20 Italian_Abruzzo 26.77
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94% Algerian + 6% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 2.31
2 94.3% Algerian + 5.7% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 2.35
3 95.5% Algerian + 4.5% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 2.63
4 95.9% Algerian + 4.1% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.65
5 95.8% Algerian + 4.2% Somali @ 2.66
6 97.3% Algerian + 2.7% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.93
7 89.8% Algerian + 10.2% Egyptian @ 3.07
8 95.2% Algerian + 4.8% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.19
9 98% Algerian + 2% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.23
10 95.4% Algerian + 4.6% Saudi @ 3.24
11 97.8% Algerian + 2.2% Maasai @ 3.31
12 98.2% Algerian + 1.8% Hadza @ 3.33
13 95.1% Algerian + 4.9% Bedouin @ 3.39
14 98.5% Algerian + 1.5% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 3.41
15 91.5% Tunisian + 8.5% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.42
16 91.2% Tunisian + 8.8% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.42
17 98.3% Algerian + 1.7% Sandawe @ 3.42
18 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Palestinian @ 3.43
19 96.1% Algerian + 3.9% Jordanian @ 3.43
20 98.8% Algerian + 1.2% Sudanese @ 3.45
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Well, why not K3? It will elevate African in Berber even higher... Some people don't like high K calculators because they show all their undesirable admixtures. Which were hidden in low K calcs
Also I trust Davidski more.
So low SSA in Mozabite Berber used as reference by Davidski is not accidental. You are right that in other calcs without specific North African category it is partly divided between other African components.The main purpose of the Eurogenes K36 is to help users unravel the ethnic origins of local areas of their genomes (aka. half-segments), hence the high number of ancestral categories, some of which are very specific. In other words, the test is mainly a chromosome painting utility.
Also worth mentioning is that this test focuses on much deeper ancestry than the Ancestry Composition at 23andMe. Hence, I expect that many Europeans will score a few percent in non-European clusters.
But why exclude half of Africa from having his own component? Berbers score higher SSA in other calcs because they were divided between West Asian, South European and SSA components. That's the whole secret.
Why you don't post MDLP k23b for this Mozabite T691712 which has in K36 64% North African?
Population
Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80
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Well, why not K3
Also I trust Davidski more.
So low SSA in Mozabite Berber used as reference by Davidski is not accidental. You are right that in other calcs without specific North African category it is partly divided between other African components.
But why exclude half of Africa from having his own component? Berbers score higher SSA in other calcs because they were divided between West Asian, South European and SSA components. That's the whole secret.
Why you don't post MDLP k23b for this Mozabite T691712 which has in K36 64% North African?
Population
Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80
As long as most Eurasians score 0% or 0,x%, it's a relevant score, even at K3, but no need to restrict the K that much to get the right amount, even a K10 gives you the correct estimation with enough other components to make it reasonnable.
Im not disagreeing with what Eurogenes says, im disagreeing with the interpretation you make of K36. You re just spreading the SSA everywhere at this K, in West Africa, NE Africa, N.Africa, Near eastern, Arabia,.. It can give interesting clues about where it was picked up but it doesn't make people magically 5 times less SSA.
It's like thinking the 100% European on 23andme must be 100% indigenous mesolithic Euro, with no Neolithic or Bronze Age influence. Studies use a wide range of K, they know what they are dealing with, though they don't use very high K, it's terrible at some point to get an estimation of one of the 3 main ancestral elements (Europe/SSA/E Asia), high K is not suited for that at all. K5-K15 is a good range.
What about T691712? He surely isn't 4.9% SSA.
K3
E_Eurasian -
SSA 25.82
W_Eurasian 74.18
K6
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.34
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.94
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.87
Natufian 45.17
Sub_Saharan 22.69
K10
CHG 12.40
Amerindian -
W_African 21.85
Papuan 0.32
SW_Asian 24.96
S_Indian -
E_Asian -
WHG 15.52
Anatolian_Farmers 24.02
EHG 0.92
PuntK12
Sub-Saharan 21.54
Amerindian 0.24
South_Asian -
Near_East 26.55
Siberian 1.15
European_HG 0.79
Caucasus_HG -
South_African_HG -
Anatolian_NF 49.36
East_Asian -
Oceanian 0.37
At K10, SW_Asian already begins to hide a part of it, about 7-8% of that score is SSA, but a well sorted K10 is a good compromise. In the same way at K12, a little is in the "near east" and ANF encompasses most of the WHG they score at lower K (which is absolutely real, and not 0.79%), it starts to do that in K10 as well.
The lowest i ve ever seen are between 12-15% SSA, at K10. Some N.Algeria, Tunisians,.. they appear in oracle as having an European grandparent, even if they surely don't. 5% doesn't exist anywhere. Msspf is around 15% which is the lower end for N.African but normal for her region.
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Thanks.
Do you know of any Kabyle results? Or you are one maybe?
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I understand your points For some regions I agreee that East-Med and Near-East for the same people (Levant) or Omotic, North-East African and east African it's too much.
But North Africa is different case. Every big world region with well established, since thousands of years, local population could have their own component.
You score high on North Atlantic and North Sea yes? Imagine situation when in most of the calcs those components don't exist and for example French people are modeled from West Med, Central Euro, Balkan and Baltic / East Euro. And in one high K calc there are North Sea and North Atlantic components. Some people will say:
"Cool, I'm North West Euro now mostly, I don't have those Baltic and Balkan any more!"
But you will tell them - "No, no, no. You are still Baltid and Balkanite partly (let's say 25%). In low K calcs you score even higher..."
25% African is equivalent of having one fully Black grandparent yes? If Atlas Berbers are mostly quadroons? I'm not telling about South Morocco or big cities but some highland, rural populations.
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All i m saying is we have to be more careful at high K. This is not the right type of calculator to estimate something as ethnically fundamental as SSA (or WHG, E.Asian for instance), because you break it down to much and individually the same thing is gonna spread everywhere, even kinda randomly at really high K.
I could create a calculator for a single country with components based on each regions, like a K30. I would make appear all the people of the same country, even a very homogenous one, as extremely different, it would even create gigantic oracle distances between them, when they are not that different at all in reality. You can do that though to see regional differences and a nation at finescale, see movements eventually between the inner regions, etc.. but not to tell ethnically what people are really made of. Look at for example your Berber on k23b, he is not @50 from a Moroccan, it's articifically inflated by the high K as it creates more divergences but at low/moderate K, he would be almost like a regular Moroccan and that's obviously much closer to the reality.
These Baltic, Atlantic, North Sea etc.. don't exist, nobody has ever been 100% Atlantic people for example. There s not even a modern population or an ancient sample where the components are located. On the other hand, 100% WHG, SSA, E.Asian people, do or did exist.
Last edited by Petalpusher; 04-06-2017 at 08:18 AM.
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I will maybe post other results later.
I am not kabyle, Im from NorthWestern Algeria, a small Berber Arabophone tribe related to Moroccan Riffians.
Kabyles have similar results than other northern Algerians from what I saw, their genetic differences are a myth.
The main differences for NorthWest Africans is the more you go to the south, the more the SSA admix is important, the more you go to north, the more you score "northern components" (lets call it that way).
Moroccans and NorthWestern Algerians tend to score more WestMed while Eastern Algerians (including kabyles) and Tunisians score way more EastMed.
The average Northern Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian score between 14 and 21% (hidden or not) SSA.
Depends of your region and how mixed your family is.
When you go more south, its higher.
I think the lowest I saw is from a former Riffian member here (around 12/13%)
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