Croatian Origin & History

[Robocop]

I started to write about origin of Croats from Archaeology, History and genetic point of view on another thread, so it is better I move that text of mine here.

Officially Croatian name is confirmed by Pope in 8th and 9th century (Croatorum), along with state (Duchy) in 8th century, not to mention Kingdom century after.

What is very interesting is that Pope was calling us on regular basis back then (along with written latin sentences on old croatian monuments from that period); Dux Brannimero (Duke Branimir) Croatorum e Sclavorum.

During the solemn divine service in St. Peter's church in Rome in 879, Pope John VIII gave his blessing to the duke and the whole Croatian people, about which he informed Branimir in his letters. Pope John VIII brought the very decision on May 21, 879, and confirmed it in his letter from June 7, 879. This was the first time that the Croatian state was officially recognized (at that time the international legitimacy was given by the Pope).


HERE ARE THE ORIGINAL LETTERS FROM POPE JOHN VIII (879 AD) TO OUR CROATIAN DUX BRANIMIR:





HERE IS THE ORIGINAL LETTER OF POPE JOHN VIII TO DUX BRANIMIR AND ENTIRE CROATIAN STATE:




Translation of some of the sentences:


When we read the letter of your Croatian Dux Branimir which we personally instructed by the honorable priest John, we learn not only about his loyalty but also the sincerity of your faith and love which ye have to St. Peter, the Apostolic League, and for us. ..., Therefore we provide arms and we hug you and your fatherly love we receive back, and we are willing to protect you always. For the Lord says: "He who endures to the end, this will save you." / Matthew, 10.22; 24, 13), etc...

There are two more letters which were sent from Pope to Branimir besides this two.


Branimir mentiones always Croats and Slavs separately on his stone writings from 9th century (those rest of slavs were just incorporated into Croats in next centuries, which is natural). This could be explain with two theories, this why Pope and our Dux mentiones Croats separately from other Slavs;

Before those two theories one should need to know this:

Croats developed identity long time before coming to Croatia, we all know for Red and White Croatia in Poland (4th, 5th and 6th century), not to mention about mentioning of Croats (Harauvatos) in Ukraine (3rd century) by Greek writers from Greek colony of Tanais on Crimea where Greeks are mentioning Croats as part of Sarmatians.

Migration from Red & White Croatia into present day Croatia (late 7th century):




Now two theories why is Pope (and our Dukes and Kings) mentioning Croats separately from other Slavs by Pope and Konstantin Porfirogenet;

1st. Croats were either Sarmatians by origin (means before they migrated to present day Poland), mixed themselves with Slavs a lot but strong identity remained.

2nd. Croats were Slavs all along but with a lot of Sarmatian influence before 4th century which developed strong identity from others which lasted till Croatian arrival to present day Croatia.

Either way, today accepted theory about Croats (from Croatian and European Archaeology) is that today's Croats are hybrid of original Croats (Slavs) and native ppl here, but more original Croats, with admix of Goths to some degree, and it is considered that Croats maybe have Sarmatian origin as tribe, Tanais writings are almost certain about it.

Ustashes used this Gothic thing to proclaime Croatian Gothic origin, so Hitler accepted Croats as Goths who are slavicized by language, but Goths never the less, officially Croats were considered by Reich & Hitler as Goths, you can check it, I don't agree with that theory, I'm just sayin a history to you.


Croatia as State in 8th century:




Croatia as Kingdom in 9th-11th century:




Now let's see OstroGothic Kingdom from 5th-early 7th century:




And btw, it is not excluded that Y-DNA I2a1b truly came with Goths here, but only a theory.

Croatian predominant Y-DNA today is I2a1b, second most dominant is R1a and I1 is around 10%.


Here are some (out of many other) Croatian artifacts with writings on Latin from 8th century, mentioning Croatian state and our Dux Branimir;





Croatian alphabet (which Croats used in 10th-11th century) Glagoljica, on large stone-tablet from our King Zvonimir (1075 AD):




Croatia enters into Hungarian-Croatian Kingdom (Personal Union) from 1102 AD forward.


Croatia in 15th century - early 16th century (time when Serbia and Bosnia fell under Ottomans), Cyan color is Croatia, Pink is borderline area before Ottomans (green color) attacked Croatia:




When wars against Ottoman Empire started, Croatia never fell (on map is shown Croatian area/wall which never fell; Pink, Dark Pink and purple color), this is the furthest where Ottomans came considering Croatia, and those areas they captured for a while (green/light green areas) they never managed to rule them because of daily wars against Ottomans, so Ottomans hold those captured areas (Green, light green) for only 80-100 years, but those areas were wastelands of wars between Croats and Ottomans on daily basis, Map from 16th century:




We won in many battles against Ottomans to secure we never fall under them (and we never did), the most famous victory over Ottomans was Battle of Sisak, near border of Croatia and today's Bosnia, after that battle Ottomans gave up from trying to conquer Central/Northern Croatia. Pope called us after all those victories as ANTEMURALE CHRISTIANITATIS (means the Wall and Shield of Christianity), Ottomans were also stopped in their attempt to conquer southern Croatia in Battle of Sinj 1715.

Vienna was attacked trough Hungary, and some eastern parts of Croatia.


Soon after those 80-100 years of wars against Ottomans; we restored our border to Ottoman Empire (which is in fact today Croatian border to Bosnia, in fact in those times that was a border between Christian and Muslim Europe), map from late 16th century till 1918:




P.S. I can say with proud that my Surname line belongs to one of the most famous Croatian families who fought Ottomans and secured that Croatia never fell. I'm not bragging, just honoured.


Also I wanna say something about our enemies from past; About Serbs, I truly don't hate Serbs, and it would be a shame if they would come here on this thread and start fightings with no reason, wars between Serbian and Croatian people ARE OVER, no more wars.

Turks were enemy of the past, today Croats and Turks respect each others, because enemies from past have to respect each others, they tried to conquer us but failed, but hey... they conquered most of others, we gave them Hell of a fight (along with our brothers from different mothers; Hungarians). , but respect to Turks, I respect them, as all honorable men should to; respect your enemy from past and vice versa.

Also respect to Bosniaks as well (btw they were never our enemies, not IMO), I respect your nation as you know, so please don't take this historical maps of past as any kind of attack on your identity, respect.



NOW, LET'S GO TO CROATIAN GENETICS, this are Autosomal DNA maps (IMO the most accurate Autosomal DNA maps ever, especially the first one, but second one is also based on the first one):





Also here is one interesting Autosomal DNA map about Mediterranean admix, it seems Croats and Bosniaks have least of it in this part of Europe:




About Croatian Y-DNA map, here it is, most dominant is Y-DNA I2a1b haplogroup:



I2a1b makes around 35-40% of Croatian population, followed by R1a which makes around 30%, and I1 which makes 10%, E-V13 is 10% in Croatia, also there is some or R1b in Croatia, around 8-10%.


Greets to everyone and CROATIA FOREVER

[Robocop]

bump

[Charles Bronson]

SHUT THE FUCK UP AVAR!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Norka]

Every Balkanigga out is claiming to be non slav, must be a new fashionable thing aye?

[Robocop]

Every Balkanigga out is claiming to be non slav, must be a new fashionable thing aye?

Where did I said that Croats are not slavs? Read again please, I just mentioned Historical events and History, never I claimed that Croats are not slavs in general.

I think people forgot here on TA (and I don't blame you because of some other users) that History & Archaeology IS NEUTRAL SCIENCE (same goes for ArcheoGenetics), and I always present it as neutral, nevermind is it about Croats, British, Spaniards, Lithuanians or Bolivians.

[Anglojew]

I subscribe to the Iranid theory.

[Robocop]

I subscribe to the Iranid theory.

To be more precise; Sarmatian theory.

[Anglojew]

To be more precise; Sarmatian theory.

Yes. I read an interesting article about the migration of both Croats & Serbs from Ancient Persia to Europe.

[Robocop]

Yes. I read an interesting article about the migration of both Croats & Serbs from Ancient Persia to Europe.

Trust me when I say this historical fact; there IS NO migrations from ancient Persia over Sarmatians, means, we cannot talk about any migrations from ancient Persia and not mention/forget Sarmatians (as most important Persian factor in Europe) because those same Sarmatians are directly Scyhtian European branch of ppl, and by default Persian, ancient Persian.

So that term; "Persian theory" is not relevant anymore (in last 20 years) in Archaeology universities, there is only Sarmatian theory about Croats and Serbs, more about Croats than Serbs to be honest.

If you would ask me what do I think, what is my opinion? Well, IMO Croats (first Croats) from 2nd and 3rd century were Sarmatians in fact, Sarmatian tribe from Sarmatian homeland (today's Ukraine), Greek stones from Tanais (Ukraine) mention this IN DIRECT WAY, they are mentioning Croats as part of Sarmatians in 2nd century.

IMO what happened? It happened (as a fact) that Croats migrated to today's Poland, got slavicized there from 3rd-6th century on large scale but Croat identity survived (not only identity by Y-DNA as well, Y-DNA I2a1b which is still dominant amongst Croats but not in Poland) even in Poland, all the way till 7th century when Croats are coming here.

That's why Pope and our Dukes and Kings are insisting in callin our Kings and Dukes as RULERS OF CROATS AND SLAVS, this is very important; Croats and Slavs.

And we're talkin about 8th century, not 2nd in this case with Pope.

Cheers

P.S. Map of Sarmatia, 3rd century AD:

[Ilma]

Very good idea, clear and precise text, thank you I didnt know all of this. You should place it in your signature to refer to it when needed now, hehe.