Sons of Atilla

[blogen]

Dear Romanians, Palestinians and other Oriental peoples from the Balkan to Arabia! This Hungarian-Turkish thing about our cultural heritage is our business and you have nothing to do with this!

[Turul Karom]

Turanism is a fairly recent nationalist ideology... I think it even started in Germany.
Now with DNA testing a lot of Hungarian Turanists are learning that such ideas were just myths, and that instead of having Hunnic genes Hungarians in fact have very European genes.
Turanism is nothing more than an ideology,personally I dont think it serves Hungary very well, at least Im happy it hasnt resulted in Turkish/Eastern immigration to Hungary.
At least on that score Hungarian politicians have been sensible.

Turanism in Hungary has a very mixed history; as Hungary has been on the losing side of many conflicts, this has also been used in one way or another to shape politics of various Hungarian puppet governments as to why Hungarians are allowed to be carved up. However, that is mostly left to the early 20th century and the crises of the past. Turanism didn't start in Germany. In fact, Hungarians were historically viewed as an Asiatic people rather than a European one. Hence, Turanism was not invented in Hungary or Turkey in order to make Hungarians somehow "more Asian", but rather to seek a sense of political unity of peoples who have already been recognized as related. Turanism today is mostly cultural, due to borders of Hungary being surrounded by Germans and Slavs. Even Jobbik doesn't speak about Turanism in the public sphere much. Hell, at one point, Hungarians were seen as more Asian than the Ottoman Turks, haha.


Meyers_1890_ethnographic_detail.jpg

With the advent of modern genealogy and genetic testing, we are able to see the remnants left by the ancient Turkic Magyars on various sects and regions of Hungary today. Of course, with all of the invasions of Hungary from the east, the Ottoman occupation, and immigration in Hapsburg lands, pinpointing the origins of any modern Magyar's Turkic genetic background is incredibly difficult... especially after all of the time that has passed! This, along with Hungary's geographic location, leaves Magyars only with cultural Turanism as a practical outlet when connecting with the brothers and sisters of the east, but of course, that never stops the potential for more political overtures in the future. With the fall of communism, Hungary's Turanic history becomes more and more popular in the mainstream, and we live in ever-exciting times of new research and study.

[Lavrentis]

Turanism in Hungary has a very mixed history; as Hungary has been on the losing side of many conflicts, this has also been used in one way or another to shape politics of various Hungarian puppet governments as to why Hungarians are allowed to be carved up. However, that is mostly left to the early 20th century and the crises of the past. Turanism didn't start in Germany. In fact, Hungarians were historically viewed as an Asiatic people rather than a European one. Hence, Turanism was not invented in Hungary or Turkey in order to make Hungarians somehow "more Asian", but rather to seek a sense of political unity of peoples who have already been recognized as related. Turanism today is mostly cultural, due to borders of Hungary being surrounded by Germans and Slavs. Even Jobbik doesn't speak about Turanism in the public sphere much. Hell, at one point, Hungarians were seen as more Asian than the Ottoman Turks, haha.


Meyers_1890_ethnographic_detail.jpg

With the advent of modern genealogy and genetic testing, we are able to see the remnants left by the ancient Turkic Magyars on various sects and regions of Hungary today. Of course, with all of the invasions of Hungary from the east, the Ottoman occupation, and immigration in Hapsburg lands, pinpointing the origins of any modern Magyar's Turkic genetic background is incredibly difficult... especially after all of the time that has passed! This, along with Hungary's geographic location, leaves Magyars only with cultural Turanism as a practical outlet when connecting with the brothers and sisters of the east, but of course, that never stops the potential for more political overtures in the future. With the fall of communism, Hungary's Turanic history becomes more and more popular in the mainstream, and we live in ever-exciting times of new research and study.

Hungarians are genetically European and this cannot change. Some Magyar influence is present, but I see no reason that you would want to drag your country closer to Turkey just because both countries speak a language that was brought by a Central Asian people with a similar lifestyle.

Hungary has established itself in Europe and has a very interesting history. It's obvious that there are a lot of Hungarians are interested in the country's origins, but that interest comes from the language. Most Hungarians are similar to their neighbors, both genetically and culturally.

I have seen your commenrs here and you seem to think that everyone is against Hungary because of the language you speak and that Trianon was a result for that. You shouldn't be thinking like that, Hungary has a good repuation in Europe and people don't care about the language you speak, so trying to find enemies out of nowhere is a bad tactic.

[Köstebek]

The level of Turanism in this forum is crazy. Both Hungarians and Turkishs have local DNA mostly. PROVEN. No point to insist for the connection. Language matters but it doesnt mean you have the same background

[Lavrentis]

The level of Turanism in this forum is crazy. Both Hungarians and Turkishs have local DNA mostly. PROVEN. No point to insist for the connection. Language matters but it doesnt mean you have the same background

Hmmmm, you are here for one day yet you know that the level of Turanism in this Forum is crazy

[Turul Karom]

Thanks for the interesting reply! Some thoughts:

Hungarians are genetically European and this cannot change.

I agree that Hungarians are by and large European in their genes today. Even the conquest Magyars had a lot of Euro genes in them. This reflects the nature of the nomadic way of life, though.

Some Magyar influence is present, but I see no reason that you would want to drag your country closer to Turkey just because both countries speak a language that was brought by a Central Asian people with a similar lifestyle.

Again though, it isn't a drag towards the east that is so difficult. On the contrary, Hungary has been doing its best to be a European nation, and a Christian nation, throughout history. We've even had a war over it, haha. There are many, many more similarities than languages or even identical words, however. For instance, Emese (woman who envisioned the Magyars being led by her sons in the legendary Turul dream) is a Turkic name. The ancient Hungarian alphabet is a Turkic one (Hungary was the last Turkic nation to use a Turkic alphabet as well, after the Ottomans adopted Arabic script and other Central Asians were using Cyrillic), the religion of the Hungarians and Turkish Turks was Tengrism before the conversions to Catholicism and Islam, respectively.... the list goes on and on, really.

Hungary has established itself in Europe and has a very interesting history.

Indeed it has, and indeed it does! It's why it's humbling to see others so interested in it, as well as the greater brotherhood between us and Turkic peoples of the east. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying Hungarians today are the benchmark of the Altaic Turks of the past. But just like the Turks in Turkey, the Kazakhs in Kazakhstan, the Bulgar Turks, etc, though we might each have different faiths and not infrequently a few different phenotypes, we all share the same roots together in the steppes of Eurasia.

I have seen your commenrs here and you seem to think that everyone is against Hungary because of the language you speak and that Trianon was a result for that. You shouldn't be thinking like that, Hungary has a good repuation in Europe and people don't care about the language you speak, so trying to find enemies out of nowhere is a bad tactic.

Then you also have read my posts about how I hold no personal ill will against Romanians, Austrians, etc for the past. If I did, then I'd have a beef over nothing that we can change today. I don't think everyone is against Hungary, but rather Hungary suffers the fate of all small and financially suffering nations: prone to tragedies and foreign influences. As far as our reputation in Europe, it's a mixed bag. I certainly know the EU-crats would give you a rather bleak opinion, haha!

[Köstebek]

Hmmmm, you are here for one day yet you know that the level of Turanism in this Forum is crazy

[oszkar07]

Turanism in Hungary has a very mixed history; as Hungary has been on the losing side of many conflicts, this has also been used in one way or another to shape politics of various Hungarian puppet governments as to why Hungarians are allowed to be carved up. However, that is mostly left to the early 20th century and the crises of the past. Turanism didn't start in Germany. In fact, Hungarians were historically viewed as an Asiatic people rather than a European one. Hence, Turanism was not invented in Hungary or Turkey in order to make Hungarians somehow "more Asian", but rather to seek a sense of political unity of peoples who have already been recognized as related. Turanism today is mostly cultural, due to borders of Hungary being surrounded by Germans and Slavs. Even Jobbik doesn't speak about Turanism in the public sphere much. Hell, at one point, Hungarians were seen as more Asian than the Ottoman Turks, haha.


Meyers_1890_ethnographic_detail.jpg

With the advent of modern genealogy and genetic testing, we are able to see the remnants left by the ancient Turkic Magyars on various sects and regions of Hungary today. Of course, with all of the invasions of Hungary from the east, the Ottoman occupation, and immigration in Hapsburg lands, pinpointing the origins of any modern Magyar's Turkic genetic background is incredibly difficult... especially after all of the time that has passed! This, along with Hungary's geographic location, leaves Magyars only with cultural Turanism as a practical outlet when connecting with the brothers and sisters of the east, but of course, that never stops the potential for more political overtures in the future. With the fall of communism, Hungary's Turanic history becomes more and more popular in the mainstream, and we live in ever-exciting times of new research and study.

I think the Turkic Turanism may have advanced in Germany, but the concept of Turanism stems from several contributors one of the main ones was a Finn, and all of those concepts began around the time when there was less scientific advance into the study of linguistics etc, so many of the ideas in terms of linguistics eg the Ural-Altaic theory were fancifull and nowdays such ideas are not really supported by linguistics/science.
Also as you imply the tendancy to Turanism in ways has almost been like an emotional political reaction... many Hungarians didnt like the Finno-Ugric theory as one example...also the percieved threat of Pan Slavism, Pan Germanism, as you know many fanciful theories of origin were put forward ...Sumerian/Huns etc not to mention the idea of the Hungarian Jesus which again had its connections to Turanism...so much of that stuff was romantic fantasy and at best Pseudo science.
I dont deny early Hungarians had connections with eastern peoples but I think the exact nature of these connections and how they relate to Hunagrians very early origins are still not entirely clear.
As you know the Hungarians are said to have been in some type of alliance with the Turkic Khazars, and later assimilated 3 Kabar tribes, , possibly there was a Turkic elite warrior caste etc, there was a lot of borrowed agricultural Turkic words but again Turkics are known for their nomad lifestyle yet the Hungarian word for Horse is not Turkic but of Uralic origins. So i think their are different theories but we dont know for certain the exact connections or how deep they go with Turkic peoples, ultimatly Hungarians dont speak a Turkic language and if we say things like there are a certain % of Turkic words in Hungarian then we can also say there is also % of Slavic and German words in Hungarian.
Most likely Hungarians were already a very mixed people by the time they entered the Karpat Medenc , they had assimilated various peoples on their way and we know they later had influx of Kuns/Cumans, Khazars, Jasz, etc so certainly from such mixtures there can be different ideas about origins etc. That does not mean that the Magyars or the main language givers were Turkic, I tend to think most likely they had a Finn-Ugric origin but in time they mixed a lot and now they are predominantly European and have been for a longtime.
I think the idea of Turanism is in some ways overly broad but it tends to come back to a Turkist type of nationalism when Hunagrians enter the Turanism ideology in my oppinion they also get connected to a Turkic nationalism, I really dont think that is helpful or relevant to Hungarians as Hungary has a very different culture and religion. The Turkic nationalism and Grey Wolves etc has its own political quirks that I think Hungary has nothing to do with...that whole situation between Hungary and Azerbaijan a few years ago was just embarassing for Hungary and it really had egg on its face from being involved in all that.

Indeed it has, and indeed it does! It's why it's humbling to see others so interested in it, as well as the greater brotherhood between us and Turkic peoples of the east. I'd like to point out that I'm not saying Hungarians today are the benchmark of the Altaic Turks of the past. But just like the Turks in Turkey, the Kazakhs in Kazakhstan, the Bulgar Turks, etc, though we might each have different faiths and not infrequently a few different phenotypes, we all share the same roots together in the steppes of Eurasia.

The absolute roots of Hungarian origins are still not clearly known and its a big leap to say that we share exactly the same roots as Turkic peoples, this is also the problem wit Turanism it takes on an emotional idea as fact without any real scientific proof of its claims.
Even the pro Turanists researchers are emotional and dishonest in their research.
An example of this is some of the people who were researching the idea of the lost Magyars in Kazakstan were reporting that those people in Kazakstan were called Madjars in actual fact they were called something similiar like Madijars but the Turanists changed the word to make it sound cloer to Magyars/Madjars.

[Turul Karom]

Cool reply; there's a fair bit to chew on!

I think the Turkic Turanism may have advanced in Germany, but the concept of Turanism stems from several contributors one of the main ones was a Finn, and all of those concepts began around the time when there was less scientific advance into the study of linguistics etc, so many of the ideas in terms of linguistics eg the Ural-Altaic theory were fancifull and nowdays such ideas are not really supported by linguistics/science.

The majority of research on Turanism in Europe takes place, and has taken place, in Hungary. There are many language theory issues with multiple language branches. You know, many Hungarian words are classified as “unknown” in origin? Pre-Christian names, however, were all Turkic. Emese, I had already mentioned above but also for a few quick ones that all Hungarians are familiar with:

Álmos: Turkic, meaning the bought one and of course, dream, in Hungarian (álom).

Árpád: Turkic, meaning barley (árpa).

Sarolt (mother of Szent István): Turkic origin, means white weasel.

Szent István (Vajk): yes, even the founder of Hungary's Christian Kingdom, has a Turkic name! Before taking on the Magyarized version of Stephen, his Turkic name Vajk meant rich and powerful. It is derived from the Tukic Bajiq.

....and of course many more, but those are the most fun to share.

Also as you imply the tendancy to Turanism in ways has almost been like an emotional political reaction... many Hungarians didnt like the Finno-Ugric theory as one example...also the percieved threat of Pan Slavism, Pan Germanism, as you know many fanciful theories of origin were put forward ...

You seem to be postulating as if Hungarians were unaware of where they came from and were just waiting for a good theory to be presented in order to accept it. It isn't like we were presented with the Finno-Ugric theory and went like, “Hmm, nah, pass.” and just went with the Turkic one. Turanism began as a movement to seek a closer relationship with already similar people with established backgrounds.

...not to mention the idea of the Hungarian Jesus which again had its connections to Turanism...

For the record, this is silly and I do not believe it at all. A part of me wonders if this isn't genuinely something thought up by the Hapsburg Austrians and threw it into some discussions to be 19th century trolls. I have never met a serious Turanist who believed that Jesus was a Hungarian. I have not seen any modern or historical attempts to link Jesus with the ancient proto-Magyars, only odd hearsay. If you have any sources or quotes from any Turanism scholars, I'd like to see them. It's a funny thought though!

As you know the Hungarians are said to have been in some type of alliance with the Turkic Khazars, and later assimilated 3 Kabar tribes, , possibly there was a Turkic elite warrior caste etc, there was a lot of borrowed agricultural Turkic words but again Turkics are known for their nomad lifestyle yet the Hungarian word for Horse is not Turkic but of Uralic origins. So i think their are different theories but we dont know for certain the exact connections or how deep they go with Turkic peoples, ultimatly Hungarians dont speak a Turkic language and if we say things like there are a certain % of Turkic words in Hungarian then we can also say there is also % of Slavic and German words in Hungarian.

A few things. First of, there are many more words than just agricultural use; words for herding and horsemanship are also used interchangeably, as well as some basic adjectives. Also, we were not in a greater Khazar alliance as much as it was a suzerainty-turned-attempted-alliance as the Khazar empire fell apart. The assimilated 3 tribes became the Kabars; they were a mix of 3 Khazar tribes that left during the ensuing wars. In the Carpathian basin, Magyars mixed also with the Caucasian Avars, who had occupied the area as well. Therefore, mixing with the Avars, Khazars, and the original Magyars with Central steppe peoples during the travels to the Carpathian Basin, I find it intellectually dishonest to not acknowledge the strong cultural and genetic ties. There were also Cumans, Pechenegs, and even Muslims that settled in Magyar lands in the pre-Christian era under Grand Prince Taksony (who took a Cuman wife). Do not forget that we became the Magyars at Etelköz; we are a confederation of steppe peoples into one glorious Magyar tribe.

Most likely Hungarians were already a very mixed people by the time they entered the Karpat Medenc , they had assimilated various peoples on their way and we know they later had influx of Kuns/Cumans, Khazars, Jasz, etc so certainly from such mixtures there can be different ideas about origins etc.

I have always said that the Hungarians of today are not somehow “pure” Turks, and reject the notion of the concept of a “pure” anything, especially in light of modern DNA testing. We'd all need to relocate massively to new countries in order for those true ethno-states to happen with all of the mixes of the planet. Some are just more overt than others. Turkic peoples have mixed over 1000 years with many other populations; other Turks, indigenous peoples, and those who have also conquered them after they settled down and formed nation states. However, this does nothing to dismiss the facts of our Turkic origins. Obviously not all Hungarians are going to have this DNA, or this kinship feeling, but that does not change the past nor those of us that are here today.

The absolute roots of Hungarian origins are still not clearly known and its a big leap to say that we share exactly the same roots as Turkic peoples, this is also the problem wit Turanism it takes on an emotional idea as fact without any real scientific proof of its claims.

That is a fair ask, and all anyone can offer is evidence. But the truth is like a scale, and evidence the weight. Whatever is heaviest is most likely to be true; unfortunately Finno-Ugric fanatics seem to brush away most Turkic facts, while offering little of their own to compensate. You certainly won't be seeing me deny the Ugric connections of some aspects of the Hungarian language, and it i unjust to do the same. Also, and let us be frank and fair, Hungarian belongs to the "Ugric" part of Finno-Ugric, and is found nowhere down the line of anything Finnic. If you look at the child systems of Finnic, a good ways down, you will eventually see modern Finnish, but never Hungarian. This seems like a cheap attempt to link them; you do know that it is a controversial language group even outside of the Turkic/Finno-Ugric debates, yes?

Even the pro Turanists researchers are emotional and dishonest in their research. An example of this is some of the people who were researching the idea of the lost Magyars in Kazakstan were reporting that those people in Kazakstan were called Madjars in actual fact they were called something similiar like Madijars but the Turanists changed the word to make it sound cloer to Magyars/Madjars.

Can you show me why you feel like this is the case, or where it has been proven? I have never seen anyone claim that there has been "wishful thinking" on the point of Hungarian anthropologists to conflate those two words, which have always sounded identical. Now, I HAVE heard of a few errant posts online of a few "unrecorded" interviews between Madjars of Kazakhstan and some anthropologists about the origins of their name, but those seem like just stories and not evidence-based fact. I only look to research, genetics, and the shared past as evidence, and Hungarians share the same religion, alphabet, lifestyle, diet, war tactics, system of naming, government, etc. with brotherly steppe peoples. This has all been proven by our archaeologists. I suppose in short, for the ancient Magyars to be Finno-Ugrics, we must sure have one weird way of showing it when everything we've done has fellow Turkic origins! (looking at Taksony, too, haha!)

I certainly don't hold anything personal against Magyars today who don't feel the same; like I've said, they might not even have the DNA connections, but that's not going to be fair to the past nor the future that Hungary can build with our ancient eastern family.

[Bosniensis]

Germanic-Turkic peoples are the greatest threat to Europe.

Truth is, Russia is also Predominantly Turkic, as well as the most of European states are Germanic.

Hungary is obviously called that way cause of Huns.

Germanic and Turkic people should not be allowed to mix with Europeans or Europeans will go extinct.