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Thread: DNA of Czechs

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    I wrote a thread "Classify Božena Němcová" several months ago, and somebody answered there, that she looks Amerindian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Rethel of Retheley View Post
    Do you want to make Mahnolię jealous?
    why should I be jealous?
    both are of a different ethnicity than me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnolia View Post
    why should I be jealous?
    That he has a czechocolleague who can write him on pm

    both are of a different ethnicity than me...
    Ja, ja, ich weiß das...

  4. #104
    Veteran Member Fantomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
    Toward the middle of the 4th millennium B.C. a number of changes began appearing in both Britain and Ireland. Perhaps of most significance was the rite that emphasized individual burial, first seen in the mid-4th millennium B.C. in Ireland's Linkardstown burials. The evidence for this is not as apparent in Britain but does exist with such burials as Liff's Low, Derbyshire, and Duggleby Howe. Perhaps the most dramatic evidence of the change of burial rite comes from Whitegrounds Barrow, Burythorpe. Here a large round mound with a central male inhumation completely covered an earlier oval mound which contained the remains of eight people. The earlier mound had a radiocarbon date of c. 3700 B.C., while the later mound produced a date of c. 3340-3210 B.C. These mounds represent two entirely different social systems, religious practices and burial rites. One emphasizes communal return to the realm of the ancestors for regeneration within the tomb/womb of the Goddess, whereas the other celebrates the personal importance of individual males (see chaps. 7 and 10).
    Of 400 pages from this book only one and half of page is about "Steppe invaders" spread in western Europe. That's what i mean when i told about disregard of this question from Kurgan hypothezis supporters. However despite the common prejudice that single graves and round barrows were brought to west of Europe only with "steppe intrusion", almost all parts of the north pontic neolithic burial practice like: red ochre using, round tumulus over the grave, burial chamber of stone slabs (Maikop culture), crooked position of body etc. much more ancient in west and spread in eastern Europe later. Those burials in Brit Isles, that Gimbutas considered as result of the 1st wave steppe invaders activity were just remnants of mesolithic/neolithic transitional cultures, like Campigny, Rinyo-Clacton, Peterborough cultures etc. There're different tribes in west Europe which practiced both way burial rites either single and collective as well.

    Originally Posted by Genetiker
    No, it isn't, because none of the early farmers were R1b-M269. Some were R1b-V88, but none were R1b-M269.

    And again, ATP2, ATP3, ATP7, ATP9 and ATP20 had significant Eastern European autosomal DNA, which none of the early farmers had.
    Have you got information, what's the full list of analyzed samples from western Europe (Spain,France, Brit.Isles) that fall into 4000-2500 BC period of time?

    "Bell Beaker Behemoth" should be published in May 2017, so just wait a bit and everything will be clear. But rumours say that R1b appears in Iberia together with Steppe admixture. So connection is obvious.

    The only question is when exactly did they come to Iberia.
    So it is indeed possible that some Indo-Europeans came to Iberia already before 3000 BC.
    Seems like IE were incomers in Atlantic, but that question is not the lone. Another one is: what's their route from east. For a while sea way from Near East, along Atlantic coastline and European rivers is much more credible than "steppe Yamna-Vucedol culture's horse riders" invasion hypothezis, not least because of the fact that Gimbutas and other almost entirely ignore it
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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
    Seems like IE were incomers in Atlantic, but that question is not the lone. Another one is: what's their route from east. For a while sea way from Near East, along Atlantic coastline and European rivers is much more credible than "steppe Yamna-Vucedol culture's horse riders" invasion hypothezis, not least because of the fact that Gimbutas and other almost entirely ignore it


  6. #106
    Veteran Member Fantomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hĺkan View Post


    Yes, Yamna samples consist of 45% CHG/INF ie Near Eastern Neolithic farmers and Irish Rathlin samples have got 70-80% of MN where ENF is the main component. Taking together with Iranian Neolithic in "Steppe" DNA this proportion is absolutely dominates there. So most likely that IE spread (Kentum branch at least) is better correlates with this huge majority, than with only "Steppe" minority. That could be early Neolithic colonists or later Megalithic ones, or brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk, any variation is more realistic than Kurgan hypothezis. And the only way in all these three migration waves was from Mediterranean sea along Atlantic coast to northern/eastern direction
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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post


    Yes, Yamna samples consist of 45% CHG/INF ie Near Eastern Neolithic farmers and Irish Rathlin samples have got 70-80% of MN where ENF is the main component. Taking together with Iranian Neolithic in "Steppe" DNA this proportion is absolutely dominates there. So most likely that IE spread (Kentum branch at least) is better correlates with this huge majority, than with only "Steppe" minority. That could be early Neolithic colonists or later Megalithic ones, or brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk, any variation is more realistic than Kurgan hypothezis. And the only way in all these three migration waves was from Mediterranean sea along Atlantic coast to northern/eastern direction
    This is the breakdown for Rathlin.

    These analyses, taken with the PCA and ADMIXTURE results, indicate that the Irish Bronze Age is composed of a mixture of European MN and introgressing Steppe ancestry (9, 10). To estimate the proportion of Yamnaya to MN ancestry in each Irish Bronze Age sample, we took three approaches. First, from
    ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1), we examined the green Caucasus ancestry component. We presume an ultimate source of this as the Yamnaya where it features at a proportion of 40% of their total ancestry. In our three Irish Bronze Age samples, it is present at levels between 6–13%, which, when scaled up to include the remaining 60% of Yamnaya ancestry, imply a total of 14–33% Yamnaya ancestry and therefore 67–86% MN in the Irish Bronze Age. Second, for each Bronze Age Irish individual, we calculated the proportion of MN ancestry by using the ratio f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; X, Dai)/f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Gok2, Dai), which gave estimates between 72 ± 4% to 74 ± 5%, implying again a substantial Yamnaya remainder. Third, we followed the methods described in Haak et al. (9), which use a collection of outgroup populations, to estimate the mixture proportions of three different sources, Linearbandkeramik (Early Neolithic; 35 ± 6%), Loschbour (WHG; 26 ± 12%), and Yamnaya (39 ± 8%), in the total Irish Bronze Age group. These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry.
    http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf

    The thing is there is no R1b-M269 in Europeans during the Neolithic. It is definitely Steppe related. It is so clear and obvious.

    Rathlin's Eurogenes K13 and K15.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 49.94
    2 Baltic 27.52
    3 West_Asian 7.16
    4 West_Med 6.48
    5 South_Asian 3.40
    6 Amerindian 2.20
    7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
    8 Red_Sea 1.06


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Norwegian @ 5.854991
    2 Swedish @ 6.378155
    3 Danish @ 6.435699
    4 North_Dutch @ 6.943228
    5 North_German @ 7.111557
    6 Irish @ 8.086287
    7 Orcadian @ 8.527667
    8 West_Scottish @ 8.822106
    9 Southeast_English @ 10.981000
    10 Southwest_English @ 11.587136
    11 North_Swedish @ 12.113091
    12 South_Dutch @ 14.523604
    13 West_German @ 15.031170
    14 East_German @ 17.276731
    15 Austrian @ 17.773823
    16 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.165777
    17 French @ 21.226280
    18 Hungarian @ 21.971560
    19 South_Polish @ 25.624912
    20 La_Brana-1 @ 26.125484

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Danish +50% Swedish @ 5.763251


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Swedish +25% Swedish +25% West_Scottish @ 5.718463


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Irish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.654887
    2 Danish + Irish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.673533
    3 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.695946
    4 Irish + Swedish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.708336
    5 Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.714194
    6 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.717242
    7 Swedish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.718463
    8 Irish + North_German + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.726860
    9 Danish + Norwegian + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.727204
    10 Danish + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.735286
    11 North_German + Swedish + Swedish + West_Scottish @ 5.738239
    12 North_German + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.744429
    13 Danish + Danish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.755604
    14 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.760739
    15 Danish + Danish + Swedish + Swedish @ 5.763251
    16 Irish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.771631
    17 Irish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.772011
    18 Danish + North_German + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.800724
    19 Danish + Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 5.815938
    20 Danish + Irish + Norwegian + Swedish @ 5.816245

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 Atlantic 32.45
    2 North_Sea 31.58
    3 Baltic 12.95
    4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
    5 West_Asian 3.29
    6 South_Asian 3.17
    7 Amerindian 1.87
    8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
    9 West_Med 1.39


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 North_German @ 8.570560
    2 Danish @ 9.199459
    3 Irish @ 9.273491
    4 West_Scottish @ 9.632721
    5 Southeast_English @ 10.713849
    6 North_Dutch @ 10.812980
    7 Orcadian @ 12.363866
    8 Southwest_English @ 12.692083
    9 South_Dutch @ 13.515372
    10 Norwegian @ 13.539064
    11 Swedish @ 13.852389
    12 North_Swedish @ 14.337133
    13 West_Norwegian @ 14.958194
    14 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.931392
    15 East_German @ 16.537271
    16 West_German @ 16.948147
    17 Austrian @ 19.163883
    18 French @ 19.201525
    19 Finnish @ 20.197750
    20 La_Brana-1 @ 21.321207

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.413251


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 7.791201


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.791089
    2 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 7.791201
    3 La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.810342
    4 Irish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 7.810678
    5 Irish + Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish @ 7.922435
    6 Irish + Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 7.980188
    7 La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 7.996135
    8 Irish + Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish @ 8.002673
    9 Danish + Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 @ 8.004673
    10 Danish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish @ 8.007087
    11 Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German + West_Scottish @ 8.020887
    12 Danish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.028337
    13 Irish + North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish @ 8.034504
    14 Irish + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.055216
    15 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + North_German @ 8.064316
    16 Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 8.069336
    17 La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.069387
    18 North_German + Southwest_Finnish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.080923
    19 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Southeast_English @ 8.087984
    20 Irish + Irish + La_Brana-1 + Orcadian @ 8.140745

  8. #108
    Veteran Member Fantomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    This is the breakdown for Rathlin.

    These analyses, taken with the PCA and ADMIXTURE results, indicate that the Irish Bronze Age is composed of a mixture of European MN and introgressing Steppe ancestry (9, 10). To estimate the proportion of Yamnaya to MN ancestry in each Irish Bronze Age sample, we took three approaches. First, from
    ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 1), we examined the green Caucasus ancestry component. We presume an ultimate source of this as the Yamnaya where it features at a proportion of 40% of their total ancestry. In our three Irish Bronze Age samples, it is present at levels between 6–13%, which, when scaled up to include the remaining 60% of Yamnaya ancestry, imply a total of 14–33% Yamnaya ancestry and therefore 67–86% MN in the Irish Bronze Age. Second, for each Bronze Age Irish individual, we calculated the proportion of MN ancestry by using the ratio f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; X, Dai)/f4(Mbuti, Ballynahatty; Gok2, Dai), which gave estimates between 72 ± 4% to 74 ± 5%, implying again a substantial Yamnaya remainder. Third, we followed the methods described in Haak et al. (9), which use a collection of outgroup populations, to estimate the mixture proportions of three different sources, Linearbandkeramik (Early Neolithic; 35 ± 6%), Loschbour (WHG; 26 ± 12%), and Yamnaya (39 ± 8%), in the total Irish Bronze Age group. These three approaches give an overlapping estimate of ∼32% Yamnaya ancestry.
    Caucasus ancestry component consists of CHG+Iranian Neolithic. Thus joint Neolithic part +Iranian One in Rathlin's samples is about 90%

    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post

    The thing is there is no R1b-M269 in Europeans during the Neolithic. It is definitely Steppe related. It is so clear and obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
    04-26-2017, 01:32 PM

    Have you got information, what's the full list of analyzed samples from western Europe (Spain,France, Brit.Isles) that fall into 4000-2500 BC period of time?
    DE OPPRESSO LIBER


  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post


    Yes, Yamna samples consist of 45% CHG/INF ie Near Eastern Neolithic farmers and Irish Rathlin samples have got 70-80% of MN where ENF is the main component. Taking together with Iranian Neolithic in "Steppe" DNA this proportion is absolutely dominates there. So most likely that IE spread (Kentum branch at least) is better correlates with this huge majority, than with only "Steppe" minority. That could be early Neolithic colonists or later Megalithic ones, or brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk, any variation is more realistic than Kurgan hypothezis. And the only way in all these three migration waves was from Mediterranean sea along Atlantic coast to northern/eastern direction
    Looks like brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk were Proto-Turks then.


  10. #110
    Veteran Member Fantomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hĺkan View Post
    Looks like brachycranic people of Bell Beaker folk were Proto-Turks then.
    Impossible to say what language did they speak. the only thing i'm sure it's the last archaeologically and anthropologically visible migration in Western Europe, this is confirmed by genetics as well. So the western IE (Italo-Celtic group) must be either among these Bell Beakers or they were here before this migration in some neolithic cultures. We need more late neolithic samples not just from Atlantic, but also from eastern Mediterannean and Pontic areas. Have to wait "Bell Beaker Behemoth"
    Last edited by Fantomas; 04-30-2017 at 02:39 AM.
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