The Greeks

[wvwvw]

Greek national appartenance appears very late, as in the case with most europeans,in early 19th century under the influence of romanticism, the ideea of assimilating the nation with the people starts to get a dominant position.

Greece was not "invented" in the 19th century. You really begin to sound like Albanian. Perhaps the Albanians can make you a honorary Albanian;

A Greek state and nation always existed. Byzantium (Eastern Rome) was exclusively administered by Greeks. Under the ottoman occupation it was referred to as Rumelia and was populated and administered by Greeks. Rumelia, literally means "land of the Romans"i.e., Byzantines.

Greeks never ceased to have a Greek ethnic conscience at any time in history. They were not some conquered insignificant nation. They always had their own state whether that was Imperium Grecorum or Rumelia.

The Greeks did not assimilate any foreign people who did not considered themselves Greek. The Greek Arvanites always had a Greek conscience and considered themselves descendants of Epirote tribes, and the Vlachs always considered themselves Greeks.

The Slavs did not intermarry with Greeks. They belonged to their own church. Under the ottomans the Slavs were administered as part of Bulgaria and Serbia, which remained Slavic. Rumelia remained Greek.

[Deymark]

Greece was not "invented" in the 19th century. You really begin to sound like Albanian. Perhaps the Albanians can make you a honorary Albanian;

A Greek state and nation always existed. Byzantium (Eastern Rome) was exclusively administered by Greeks. Under the ottoman occupation it was referred to as Rumelia and was populated and administered by Greeks. Rumelia, literally means "land of the Romans"i.e., Byzantines.

Greeks never ceased to have a Greek ethnic conscience at any time in history. They were not some conquered insignificant nation. They always had their own state whether that was Imperium Grecorum or Rumelia.

The Greeks did not assimilate any foreign people who did not considered themselves Greek. The Greek Arvanites always had a Greek conscience and considered themselves descendants of Epirote tribes, and the Vlachs always considered themselves Greeks.

The Slavs did not intermarry with Greeks. They belonged to their own church. Under the ottomans the Slavs were administered as part of Bulgaria and Serbia, which remained Slavic. Rumelia remained Greek.

Nowhere in this thread you will find me stating that Greece was invented in the 19th century!You are putting words into my mouth so you can copy-paste the same arguments you do.I said the Greek Nation-State appeared, as in most of Europe, in the early 19th century.For most of its existence as an independent state, Greek identity was based on religion and language.I'm not interested in the rest of your post, I let you in your own world.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Dimitris Epikouris is Albanian? Are you serious? Can you prove this?

Can you prove that he is Greek? Can you even prove he is using his real name?

A knucklehead like you is getting excited way too easily, but as I have pointed out, it doesn't even matter. He is posting opinions, not facts, and those are the opinions of an Albanian for sure.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greece was not "invented" in the 19th century. You really begin to sound like Albanian. Perhaps the Albanians can make you a honorary Albanian;

A Greek state and nation always existed. Byzantium (Eastern Rome) was exclusively administered by Greeks. Under the ottoman occupation it was referred to as Rumelia and was populated and administered by Greeks. Rumelia, literally means "land of the Romans"i.e., Byzantines.

Greeks never ceased to have a Greek ethnic conscience at any time in history. They were not some conquered insignificant nation. They always had their own state whether that was Imperium Grecorum or Rumelia.

The Greeks did not assimilate any foreign people who did not considered themselves Greek. The Greek Arvanites always had a Greek conscience and considered themselves descendants of Epirote tribes, and the Vlachs always considered themselves Greeks.

The Slavs did not intermarry with Greeks. They belonged to their own church. Under the ottomans the Slavs were administered as part of Bulgaria and Serbia, which remained Slavic. Rumelia remained Greek.

Maybe you should start using an African flag because even the Uruguayans shall start getting offended by now.

You'd better stick to reporting news...

[wvwvw]

You seem to live in a science-fiction movie where greeks from ancient to present times were/are always the most enlightened,they were under no influence, they being the utmost influence, and that non-greek populations always tried to copy greeks.

Greek civilization was the most dominant until middle ages. And yes Greeks were more enlightened than most people around them. Even the Bible call the Greeks wise. The Georgian word for “Greek”- “berdzeni” - means “wise” or “wisdom.” Even in Buddhist sacred texts are referred as "wise": the mahawamsa or great chronicle of sri lanka refers to greece (country of the yona):

mahabharata viii
the yavanas, (Greeks) o king, are all-knowing; the suras are particularly so. The mlecchas are wedded to the creations of their own fancy.



And the "decadent" Byzantine empire lasted 1000 years and was the worlds longest lasting empire. Obviously it wasn't as bad and decadent as some try to portray it. If it was it wouldn't have lasted so long nor would it be so much ahead of its time.

Now I never said that Greeks have never been influenced by anyone. But saying Greece is an artificial creation is going to the other extreme.

[wvwvw]

For most of its existence as an independent state, Greek identity was based on religion and language.I'm not interested in the rest of your post, I let you in your own world.

Yes but only a GREEK Orthodox could be Greek. When the Hellenic religion was stamped out and all Greeks had to be baptised as Greek Orthodox Christians and were put under the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarch who was the Patriarch of Greeks and Greeks alone. Other denominations such as the Bulgarians, Russians and Serbs had their own patriarchs and denominates.

Jews were allowed to remain Jews. Egyptians followed the Coptic religion and spoke Coptic. Ethiopians followed the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and spoke Ethiopian. Armenians were Armenian Orthodox and spoke Armenian, Lebanese were Maronite or Druse Christians and spoke Aramaic. Assyrians were Assyrian Orthodox, and Syrians were Syrian Orthodox and both spoke Aramaic.

Only ethnic Greece by decent were Greek Orthodox. The Orthodox Church does not seek converts from other Christian denominations or other religions. The Greek church was directly under the Bishop of Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarch, who was always a Greek. The other church were under their own patriarchs who were always from the same ethnicity as their church. Each ethnic group had its own independent church.

If anything the GREEK Orthodox religion helped safeguard the Greek identity when Greece was occupied by the Ottomans.

Before Christianity, the definition of a Greek was someone who worshiped the Gods of Olympus as their ancestral Gods and when Christianity replaced the Hellenic religion, it was anyone who was baptised, born or married within the Greek Orthodox church. Greek Orthodoxy was only practiced by ethnic Greeks and the Greek Orthodox church extended only to areas where there were ethnic Greeks and did not seek converts.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Yes but only a GREEK Orthodox could be Greek....

That was the past, and it is no longer true. Your problem is that other non-Greeks could be Orthodox, and even Greek Orthodox...

[wvwvw]

I said the Greek Nation-State appeared, as in most of Europe, in the early 19th century.For most of its existence as an independent state, Greek identity was based on religion and language.I'm not interested in the rest of your post, I let you in your own world.

First of all 'history' has being written as a lie. There were nor are any nation states in Western Europe. Do you know of any UKers? The French are composed of many ethnic linguistic groups, Corsica, Brettons, Provence that cannot understand French. The only thing in common is their religion. And religion was why Belgium separated from the Dutch. Spain too has many ethnic groups. Switzerland is hardly an ethnic or national state as is neither Belgium. And Bavarians have in much in common with Prussians (different religion, and very different German dialects) as Poles have with Russians. The first real nation state in Europe was Greece in 1832. One nation, religion and everyone identifying as Greek. Perhaps Hungary is another one, then Ireland.

As for nationalism, Germans or Slavs today don't have an Olympics or institution where all Germans or Slavs take part. Ancient Greeks did. So Western Europe had no nationalism, nor nation-states. Nationalism exist in Ireland, Basques, Corscica that try and destroy those so called 'nation states'.

The first Real European nation state was perhaps the Byzantine Empire. One language, religion, and everyone identifying with one national identity, Romans. It was a Greek state with minorities living within its borders.

Western historians offer no real definition of a Nation State. France was based on a common religion and community. Germany on a common language and race.

Soviets based their nation state on ideology. But America based their nation state on the concept of equal opportunity for all. Iranians have based their nation state on the Shiite religion. There is no such thing as Iranians. There are Azeris and Farsis and 100 other ethnic groups. Just like there is no such thing as Iraqis.

The concept of a Nation State is a farse. Or all States are Nation States. Ancient Egypt was a Nation State as much as the UK. China was a nation state. But a lie often repeated gets accepted. States produce propaganda into people from Kindergarden onwards that they belong to this great nation. But no one belongs to a nation-state. It's brainwashing.

Historians saying Western Europe discovered nation states and nationalism is a joke. Nationalism is just pro-state propaganda. But Western Europe didn't invented pro-state propaganda. Or better still historians are paying lip service to their employers, the State.

Anyway you define nationalism, whether it's the propaganda of a nation state, or on religion or on language or on conscious of a separate identity, Greek nationalism (as well as others) had all those attributes combined. The West didn't invent them.

[wvwvw]

That was the past, and it is no longer true. Your problem is that other non-Greeks could be Orthodox, and even Greek Orthodox...

Well I am talking about the past. Yes non Greeks can be Greek Orthodox today if they marry into the Greek church, but otherwise chances for any non Greek to spontaniously convert to Greek Orthodox are small since they wouldn't understand the liturgy in Greek.

How attractive would it be for you as a Greek to join the Serbian, or Armenian, or Coptic or Catholic church if you have no ties to these ethnicities? Non Greeks would find it equally un-appealing to convert to Greek Orthodoxity especially if they have no ties to the land.

[wvwvw]

Greece has always been a nation-state since antiquity.

Greece was a confederation of federations and as such was a nation state. Egypt, Assyria and republican Rome were also nation states as was Armenia.

One might argue that Ptolemy Egypt was no Nation State because it had minorities. Well Romania has Hungarian minorities. And Italy doesn't even have Italians. (Sicilians cannot understand the language of Venice. As recently as 1920 only 10% of 'Italians' understood Italian-Tuscani's Language).

If you define pre 1890's Italy as a nation state the so was ancient Greece. Rember Agamemnon was High King of Mycenae and defacto king of ALL the Greeks.

And if Austria, Denmark etc are nation states despite all being German than Athens too was a nation state.

There was a common Hellenic Identity.

The people of Hellas were Hellenes. Hellas was made up of Achea, Macedonia, Sparta, Crete, Cyprus and Ionia.

China was a federation of provinces run by rival war lords.

Persia was conquered territory and its inhabitants couldn't give a toss if the were ruled by Persians or Greeks (Hellenes).

India was never united until the British came. It was composed of many warring factions who wanted each other dead. Look at why Pakistan was created and why it was so easy for the British to conquer India..

And Egypt was Cosmopolitan. Half its population were not even Egyptian. They all identified with their own race i.e. Jews were Jews and Greeks were Greeks. And the Seleucids never used the term Greeks. Greeks was a Romans term. The Seleucids refer to Greeks by the tribal names. And Ancient Egyptians did the same when they referred to Greeks.