Moorish Invasion and Its Genetic Contribution in Iberia

[Kazbolat]

Nah, they are not 1/4 Moorish, since Moroccans have and aditional 7% SSA, that Portuguese completely lack (0,2%) which lowers their North African component.

I believe we are 1/6 North African.

Portuguese have 2-3% SSA on average besides Moroccans have received more SSA admix recently due to influx of Saharan tribes into coastal regions.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Inquisition was actually 'you either convert, stay here and mix with us or you die, obviously after 1492 many Moorish chose to stay and mix in.

That's incorrect. The Inquisition's job was to root out heretics. The focus was on people who were suspected of secretly practicing their family's former religion and people with Protestant sympathies. These people had already converted. The question was whether they were backsliding. There were two Morisco rebellions against the state in the 1570s and in the 1610s. Except for children they were forced out (those who went to Morocco formed the backbone of the Moroccan kings conquest of a SSA kingdom I can't recall the name of).

I first I thought it wasn't very good idea kicking out a population that tended to be highly skilled as artisans but then I read that Turkish attacks on Spanish shipping and coasts declined significantly afterwards. They had been passing information to Turkish and Barbary pirates. So it was a good thing they were kicked out in after their last rebellion in the 1610s. Although the Valencian nobility never recovered from losing a pretty subjugated population working the lands for their benefit.

The proper 'quote' would be 'convert for real or leave.' And we're certainly not speaking of 1492 when they were given the option to leave or convert. I don't know where you got the nonsense they would be killed; you even contradict yourself by stating 'stay here and mix with us, or die.' Why would you need to say 'stay here...' if you think no option was given to leave?

Anyway, the Morisco population wasn't any different than the local population. I remember reading in one of Coon's books people in North Africa descended from Moriscos and with not much if any mixing with the locals had the same head shape as Andalusians in contrast to other North Africans.

I should correct if I gave a wrong impression: not all Morisco adults were kicked out. Something like 1/8th of the adults were allowed to stay.

[Bell Beaker]

Portuguese have 2-3% SSA on average besides Moroccans have received more SSA admix recently due to influx of Saharan tribes into coastal regions.

So you use a spreadsheet in one case and then in you use a different one for other?

Even if the Portuguese were 2% SSA, that would be 10 times less than the % of the Moroccans, which does not correlates with the difference between our North African admixture and the Moroccan one.

I think you don't know what you are talking about.....

[Bell Beaker]

That's incorrect. The Inquisition's job was to root out heretics. The focus was on people who were suspected of secretly practicing their family's former religion and people with Protestant sympathies. These people had already converted. The question was whether they were backsliding. There were two Morisco rebellions against the state in the 1570s and in the 1610s. Except for children they were forced out (those who went to Morocco formed the backbone of the Moroccan kings conquest of a SSA kingdom I can't recall the name of).

I first I thought it wasn't very good idea kicking out a population that tended to be highly skilled as artisans but then I read that Turkish attacks on Spanish shipping and coasts declined significantly afterwards. They had been passing information to Turkish and Barbary pirates. So it was a good thing they were kicked out in after their last rebellion in the 1610s. Although the Valencian nobility never recovered from losing a pretty subjugated population working the lands for their benefit.

The proper 'quote' would be 'convert for real or leave.' And we're certainly not speaking of 1492 when they were given the option to leave or convert. I don't know where you got the nonsense they would be killed; you even contradict yourself by stating 'stay here and mix with us, or die.' Why would you need to say 'stay here...' if you think no option was given to leave?

Anyway, the Morisco population wasn't any different than the local population. I remember reading in one of Coon's books people in North Africa descended from Moriscos and with not much if any mixing with the locals had the same head shape as Andalusians in contrast to other North Africans.

I should correct if I gave a wrong impression: not all Morisco adults were kicked out. Something like 1/8th were allowed to stay.

Oh man, their fun time is over, Frank Grimes arrived.

[Isleño]

I know some are going to say that this North African admixture in Iberia is "ancient" neolithic and didn't come with Moors. Then how do you explain this? People living other side of the Pyrenees (ie French) seem to lack this admixture!

For comparison, more populations from MDLP K16

Populations - North African admixture %:
Moroccan - 27.4%

South of Pyrenees
Spanish - 5.71%
Portuguese - 6.20%

North of Pyrenees
French - 0.99%

Britain
English - 0.69%

Basque region
Basque 0.79%


SO HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS? BRITAIN AND FRANCE WERE NOT INVADED BY MOORS AND THEY LACK THIS ADMIXTURE (NOISE LEVELS)? WHY DO BASQUE LACK THIS ADMIXTURE?

Maybe those ancient North Africans stopped at the Pyrenees. It is a natural barrier. It's quite known that ethnic Moors were a very small part of Moorish Iberia and most Moors were Spanish converts. I did argue at one point that any North African DNA found in Iberia came from the Moorish invasion of Iberia, but after digging and a realization about modern DNA of Iberians, I had to agree with a few other Spaniards here that pushed the ancient NA idea. If you understand who the ethnic Moors were, one would understand that most of them were Berbers, but there were Sub-Saharans, Levantine and Turks among them. But in the DNA of Iberians, SSA is basically non-existent almost. But North African is present.

[Ibericus]

MDLP K23b

North African %

Moroccan 41.29%
Portuguese 9.11%
Spaniard 4.55
Spanish_Andalucia_IBS 5.62
Spanish_Aragon_IBS 4.47
Spanish_Baleares_IBS 3.58
Spanish_Canarias_IBS 14.78
Spanish_Cantabria_IBS 4.20
Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS 4.59
Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS 7.66
Spanish_Cataluna_IBS 4.31
Spanish_Extremadura_IBS 6.44
Spanish_Galicia_IBS 5.82
Spanish_Murcia_IBS 6.43
Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS 1.29
Spanish_Valencia_IBS 4.86
French 1.70%
Basque_Spanish 0.40%
Basque_French 0.16%


So if we take Moroccan North African admixture (41%) as a reference for Moors then Moorish admixture ranges between 10-18% in Spain and 20-25% in Portugal.

MLDP K23b north-african component :

Sardinians : 5.19%
Cretans : 5.18%
Italian North : 4.16%
Greek Athens : 3.42%
Italian Piedmont : 3.22%
Greek Macedonia : 3.17%
Italian Tuscan 3.16%
Italian Bergamo 3.02%
Greek_Thessaloniki 2.98%
Bulgarian : 2.50%
German-Volga : 1.96%
Romanian : 1.92%
French South : 1.91%
German East : 1.8%
Montenegrin : 1.77%
Russian North : 1.75%
Kosovar : 1.72%
French : 1.70%
Bosnian : 1.70%
Maecdonian : 1.59%
etc.
etc.

So according to your theory, North Italians are (4.16/41) = 11% north-african, or German East are (1.8/41) = 4.4% North-African and French South are 4.66%

[Tietar]

I can imagine all these assholes looking for internet something to relate to Spain with the Moors.

The deception must be enormous when they only find:

1. a long list of words of medieval objects that no one uses, and plants that no one knows

2. The mosque of Cordoba which is actually a Cathedral.

3. A landscape of the desert of Almeria

I would like to see the face of an asshole that they have left

It would be fun except for one thing, that all these trolls feel comfortable in a forum that calls themselves "european cultural community", and they can open the same stupid thread every day

[Kazbolat]

Ok, so be it. Iberians don't have any Moorish/North Africann and SSA admixture.

[Jana]

...

Why do you troll ? It's manipulation of facts. Their North African average is inflated by Canary Islanders who you shouldn't count, as their have their own genetics. 2-4% of North African in Iberia is real and most likely ancient, what the big deal ?
When you seem to imply swarthy admixture is subhuman (and insulting North Africans), why don't you mention non-neglible Indian admixture all North Caucasians score ?

Your related people on that exact calculator: Kumyk = 7.83 (7%) Indian, Balkar = 3.40% Indian, Nogai = 4.69 (6%) Indian. Does it mean you recieved direct genetic admixture by Indians, or what ? Bad trolling thread.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Only to remember North Africa and Iberia were cartaginese territories and roman provinces, they tended to be only one institution. Only the recent religious difference separated them.

Maybe autossomal results occult their original link, but the distribution of north african E-M81 and E-M78 yDNA in Iberia is conclusive about this influence. It only shows the success of christianism in their mission: convert new peoples. They even peak 10% in latin america...