Alsace-Lorraine, French or German?

[Melki]

They're a selection of a faction that France would promote and who were 'salonfähig' to a regime that looked at Germany as their hereditary enemy. Pro-German sentiment in a country like that is bad for your reputation. I shouldn't have to explain this.

I do agree that wartime annexation did a lot to increase anti-German sentiment. Also in Luxembourg this was the case. And it's also the reason who the Swiss German evolution toward speaking Standard German got reversed to speaking dialect almost everywhere, because Hitler wanted all ethnic German areas annexed in his Reich and they were worried about that situation.

Alsace is not Austria and there were no Anschluß, if you think official historical sources are lying, it's your problem. Alsatians have always felt French and if a minority of them would like to secede, it's due to economic reasons, not anti-French reasons. Alsace is the wealthiest region of France pro capita.

You, Flemish Belgians, are not too familiar with the French culture, unlike your Walloon neighbours, otherwise, you would be better informed about the abundant Alsatian litterature, where anti-Prussian feelings are clearly emphasized, like L'Ami Fritz for example, written in 1864

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Ami_Fritz

[Dandelion]

Alsace is not Austria and there were no Anschluß, if you think official historical sources are lying, it's your problem. Alsatians have always felt French and if a minority of them would like to secede, it's due to economic reasons, not anti-French reasons. Alsace is the wealthiest region of France pro capita.

You, Flemish Belgians, are not too familiar with the French culture, unlike your Walloon neighbours, otherwise, you would be better informed about the abundant Alsatian litterature, where anti-Prussian feelings are clearly emphasized, like L'Ami Fritz for example, written in 1864

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Ami_Fritz

Written in French by an intellectual in a French regime during anti-German times. And I'm not saying they're willing to secede. I said this nowhere. I'm only saying I think you only want to believe Alsatians always felt French and that they seemingly didn't see it as a bad thing to have French imposed on them to the point they became Francophone monoglots. That's still loss of identity. Especially as one of the tactics was to have French people from other regions move in in large groups and highlight the dialect over the cultural language.

[Óttar]

In the link, they didn't refer to german but alsacian, which is the local dialect of the region. You change alsacian by german to make pass the region as an historical german region. The thing are more complex and nuanced.

Alsatian is a German dialect.

[Melki]

Written in French by an intellectual in a French regime during anti-German times. And I'm not saying they're willing to secede. I said this nowhere. I'm only saying I think you only want to believe Alsatians always felt French and that they seemingly didn't see it as a bad thing to have French imposed on them to the point they became Francophone monoglots. That's still loss of identity. Especially as one of the tactics was to have French people from other regions move in in large groups and highlight the dialect over the cultural language.

1/French was the language of intellectuals in Alsace, like in Flanders or even Germany before Goethe. Leibniz and Kaiser Frederick II. wrote in French. Until recently, Flemish was perceived as a working class language, French was reserved to elites.

2/ If these times were anti-German, there was a good reason.

3/ I know Alsace, I'm part-Alsatian myself (my mother has a Germanic surname) and I lived there. Therefore, I'm good positioned to talk about it. Now, if you want more information about Erythrea, ask an Erythrean.

4/ Right-wingers are more prone to fall in the trap of smoky conspiracy theories.

[Dandelion]

1/French was the language of intellectuals in Alsace, like in Flanders or even Germany before Goethe. Leibniz and Kaiser Frederick II. wrote in French. Until recently, Flemish was perceived as a working class language, French was reserved to elites.

2/ If these times were anti-German, there was a good reason.

3/ I know Alsace, I'm part-Alsatian myself (my mother has a Germanic surname) and I lived there. Therefore, I'm good positioned to talk about it. Now, if you want more information about Erythrea, ask an Erythrean.

4/ Right-wingers are more prone to fall in the trap of smoky conspiracy theories.

Well, calling our language Flemish and not Dutch is also a French divide-et-impera tactic, by the way. Though subconciously used in informal language nowadays, it emphasising the dialect over the cultural language for your neighbouring languages used to be beneficial politically.
For us it's even a monstrosity of a historical inaccuracy, as Flemish is an actual dialect group. Even though Flemish region itself is that too, it's an example of a pars-pro-toto name.

Alsatian at least is an actual German dialect belonging to the Allemanic group.

[Melki]

Well, calling our language Flemish and not Dutch is also a French divide-et-impera tactic, by the way.

Flemish are not dialects of Dutch?

I explain you why Prussians were hated in Alsace. Throughout the 19th century, before it achieve Germany's national unity in 1871, Prussia and its growing hegemony were not well perceived in Austria and in all southern German states. Alsace was no exception.
Even today, if you travel to Bavaria, you will find out that northern and eastern Germany are not popular in people's hearts. "²Die spinnen, die Preißn!" is still commonly heard over there.
It's the same in Alsace. To Alsatians, die Bundesrepublik with Berlin for capital city is no more no less Prussia's legit heir.

[Dandelion]

Flemish are not dialects of Dutch?

I explain you why Prussians were hated in Alsace. Throughout the 19th century, before it achieve Germany's national unity in 1871, Prussia and its growing hegemony were not well perceived in Austria and in all southern German states. Alsace was no exception.
Even today, if you travel to Bavaria, you will find out that northern and eastern Germany are not popular in people's hearts. "²Die spinnen, die Preißn!" is still commonly heard over there.
It's the same in Alsace. To Alsatians, die Bundesrepublik with Berlin for capital city is no more no less Prussia's legit heir.

Well, most people today call our language Dutch here. However informally some less educated people call our language Flemish. And in many languages the word for Dutch is 'Hollandish' and they call our language Flemish conversely, like is the case in Spanish for instance. However, Flemish in truth, to be entirely accurate is a dialect group only spoken in the provinces of West Flanders and East Flanders (and French Flanders and Zeelandic Flanders). Brabantian is a more commonly spoken dialect group. Of course, most people here don't care about this stuff.

Flemish as pars-pro-toto used to be the informal name for the Southern Netherlands (Habsburg Netherlands + Liège = proto-Belgium and Luxembourg) by foreigners. I personally am not a fan of the name Flanders as synonym for the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium. At least not how it's made official. It's like the Dutch calling their state Holland officially, which they never did. It's called the Netherlands officially. Of course, I know why they did it here. Because the best name for us is, also Netherlands.

I winked behind my sentence, because I'm not offended, though I would never call my language Flemish because of those reasons.

[Mingle]

It was German before it was French, but now its French.

[Ouistreham]

Nobody likes to be derooted and France had a policy of strict Frenchification everywhere.

Urban and Internet legend.
All modern Nation-States in the past were eager to "nationalize" their populations under a common culture and unified national feelings.

France was no exception, but the process there was far less brutal than in Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, the USA, Poland and all Eastern European States (basically anywhere else), or than currently in the Flemish community — I'm sorry, but you know it's a reality (have you ever heard of a French Mayor being sentenced because he speaks German, Breton, Basque etc. with his fellow citizens? It happens only in Flanders, in some communes with an overwhelming French speaking majority).

I wonder how the situation was in 1871-1918 period. Did they stood for their Frenchness or embrassed the spirit of Pan-Germanism?

The German Imperial government had the best intentions, they sent to Alsace crowds of competent administrators and invested a lot in infrastructures and fine buildings to try to win the Alsatian hearts and minds. But it was an abject failure. The Alsatians never ceased to see the Germans as military occupiers, from the beginning to the end of the German regime. It's really weird, it was somewhat injustified but that's the way it was.

About the public mood in Alsace short before WW-1, read:
[ German] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabern-Aff%C3%A4re
or
[ English ] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabern_Affair

[Dandelion]

Urban and Internet legend.
All modern Nation-States in the past were eager to "nationalize" their populations under a common culture and unified national feelings.

France was no exception, but the process there was far less brutal than in Germany, Spain, Italy, Sweden, the USA, Poland and all Eastern European States (basically anywhere else), or than currently in the Flemish community — I'm sorry, but you know it's a reality (have you ever heard of a French Mayor being sentenced because he speaks German, Breton, Basque etc. with his fellow citizens? It happens only in Flanders, in some communes with an overwhelming French speaking majority).


The German Imperial government had the best intentions, they sent to Alsace crowds of competent administrators and invested a lot in infrastructures and fine buildings to try to win the Alsatian hearts and minds. But it was an abject failure. The Alsatians never ceased to see the Germans as military occupiers, from the beginning to the end of the German regime. It's really weird, it was somewhat injustified but that's the way it was.

About the public mood in Alsace short before WW-1, read:
[ German] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabern-Aff%C3%A4re
or
[ English ] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabern_Affair

Well, children were punished for speaking any other language than French. Sure, not unique to France, also happened in the US, but when that was happening French was spoken here among the elite. Not a natural situation though, as it was a result of geopolitics and history.

As for Brussels periphery being 'brutal'. You're making that up. You dramatise. France historically was for more strict in its imposing the French language, whereas Flemish merely had a defensive reflex versus an elite who can handle itself. But you make it seem worse than it is. The situation in fact was far worse in Walloon facility municipalities and ceased being bad as there aren't any but on paper now. In Flemish municaplities with facilities for Francophones at least they exist in practice, though not without tensions as Francophones can also be very disrespectful and vice versa, even if tensions hopefully have been diminishing since (the vitriol of past generations isn't there today).

Just your language about it with words like 'brutal' is ridiculous. That's French nationalism speaking. like those people crying over the Val d'Aosta in Italy. I agree Italy under Mussolini had a severe Italianisation policy so bad it forced all French speakers out basically. And this for a region that was originally Francophone majority, its placenames and all. Italy as a country though, historically, still treated its minorities better, at least minority languages like German have survived and thrived in South Tyrol. I guess they were a higher population or didn't want to offend Hitler too much. Already in 1946 Italy recognised the rights of its German speakers. Nowadays they only face occasional ridicule by some arrogant journalist, but it's very tame all things considered and nationalism is diminishing there. A European trend and a natural evolution of people ceasing to be chauvinist as the echo of a Europe of warring nations is fading (hopefully not to return).