Alsace-Lorraine, French or German?

[Not a Cop]

It's all different. The linguistic unification of the USA wasn't a peacefull process. In 1917 it became forbidden by law to teach German to children (there were previously many privately organized parish schools, Catholic or Lutheran, serving German communities in the MidWest).

But we can admit that the U.S. had a nation to build, furthermore given the declaration of war to Germany.
BTW French schools were also outlawed in Louisiana at the same time.


Quite true.
Alsatians are ethnically Germanic, but psychologically very French. They even tend to consider themselves as the best real French, and sometimes they say that France would become really OK is all of the nation was made of Alsatians (which is a sort of "Besserwisser-Mentalität" that sounds somewhat German...).

Why did they choose to endorse a French identity is a long long story that goes back to the Thirty Years War.

I wonder how the situation was in 1871-1918 period. Did they stood for their Frenchness or embrassed the spirit of Pan-Germanism?

[Melki]

I wonder how the situation was in 1871-1918 period. Did they stood for their Frenchness or embrassed the spirit of Pan-Germanism?

In the Reichstag, Alsatians representatives were so upset to be Germans that they spoke French on purpose during parliamentary sessions.

Uncle Hansi (real name: Jean-Jacques Waltz) was an Alsatian artist and staunch pro-French activist. He was famous for his traditional illustrations of life in Alsace.





Even today, German tourists in Alsace buy a lot of these illustrations in the souvenir shops. What they ignore is that Hansi was a fierce anti-German.







"Boche" is a very rude and derogatory word for "German".

[Cristiano viejo]

German. No question.

[Dandelion]

I'm very sceptical when a Frenchman says they all were pro-French from the beginning. Sorry if I'm not convinced. Propaganda is propaganda and France only shows what is good for her. Truth is that there were some happy to work for France and others less happy, but probably never to the point they'd riot over it.

Nobody likes to be derooted and France had a policy of strict Frenchification everywhere.

I think especially when the Nazis were in power their situation was uncomfortable (German still widely being spoken in the region). Seen as traitors but the German regime and seen as potential fifth columnist Krauts by the French regime.

[Jehan]

If I'm not mistaken Lorraine is mostly French, only Alsace used to be German.

But they are losing their language and their German identity very fast.

German-speakers (%) among the population of Alsace by year:

1900: 95%
1946: 91%
1997: 63%
2001: 61%
2012: 43%

Percent of German-speakers in Alsace by age group as of 2012:

60+ - 74%
45-59 - 54%
30-44 - 24%
18-29 - 12%
3-17 - 3%

As of 2012, only 3% of inhabitants of Alsace aged 3-17 could speak German.

Source:

http://www.olcalsace.org/fr/observer...te-en-chiffres

In the link, they didn't refer to german but alsacian, which is the local dialect of the region. You change alsacian by german to make pass the region as an historical german region. The thing are more complex and nuanced.

[Dandelion]

In the link, they didn't refer to german but alsacian, which is the local dialect of the region. You change alsacian by german to make pass the region as an historical german region. The thing are more complex and nuanced.

Another French tactic. Highlight the dialect and not the larger whole as a means to divide and conquer. Alsatian is a German dialect to any other person.

[Jehan]

The region had regukary change from germany to france.
Indeed, this region is particular and it's a biit a bridge between the two countries.

My brother is living there and I can assure you people feel totally french there. They have some regional culture but whiich is consider as a part of France.
You can see it in election. Alsace is a "blue region", a conservative one.

[Dandelion]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying they don't feel French today. I'm neither saying they don't have a distinct Alsatian character today which is unique to them, despite having lost their language (many probably learn German at school because they're close to Germany). I'm certainly not saying they should belong to Germany nowadays. History has its winners and losers for a reason and people should learn to accept borders in peacetime.

However, Alsatian isn't a magical peculiarity that is distinct from German compared to other German dialects. I know some Alsatians back then referred to their language as 'Alsatian, not German' though, but that's because they were 'cucked' by French nationalism. The Francophone next to him is the first to promote that school of thought over 'German is the larger standard language belonging to Allemanic dialects'.

That being said 'cucked' is too much of an insult, hence the parentheses. They rather didn't see it worth fighting for. It's a good civilised attitude.

[Melki]

I'm very sceptical when a Frenchman says they all were pro-French from the beginning. Sorry if I'm not convinced. Propaganda is propaganda and France only shows what is good for her. Truth is that there were some happy to work for France and others less happy, but probably never to the point they'd riot over it.

Nobody likes to be derooted and France had a policy of strict Frenchification everywhere.

I think especially when the Nazis were in power their situation was uncomfortable (German still widely being spoken in the region). Seen as traitors but the German regime and seen as potential fifth columnist Krauts by the French regime.

You think I made up those stories about the malgré-nous and the Alsatian Abgeordneten who refused to speak German? You think I drew myself these anti-German illustrations? I know Google is TA members's best friend and that you are willing to believe any fishy right-wing propaganda about the deutscher Lebensraum, and trust ignorant anti-French jerks who talk out of their ass like Carajo viejo, but the best way to be sure would be to travel yourself to Alsace and ask the locals if they feel more French or German.
I am half German myself, so it's not really in my interest to feed Germanophobic feelings.

When the Germans annexed Alsace and imposed conscription, Alsatians were not asked after their mind, They never forgave the Germans for that.

[Dandelion]

You think I made up those stories about the malgré-nous and the Alsatian Abgeordneten who refused to speak German? You think I drew myself these anti-German illustrations? I know Google is TA members's best friend and that you are willing to believe any fishy right-wing propaganda about the deutscher Lebensraum, and trust ignorant anti-French jerks who talk out of their ass like Carajo viejo, but the best way to be sure would be to travel yourself to Alsace and ask the locals if they feel more French or German.
I am half German myself, so it's not really in my interest to feed Germanophobic feelings.

When the Germans annexed Alsace and imposed conscription, Alsatians were not asked after their mind, They never forgave the Germans for that.

They're a selection of a faction that France would promote and who were 'salonfähig' to a regime that looked at Germany as their hereditary enemy. Pro-German sentiment in a country like that is bad for your reputation. I shouldn't have to explain this.
Promoting monoglot French from other region to move in. Not having education in your language and having French imposed. Forbidden children to speak your language in schoolyards. I have a hard time fathoming they would embrace that willingly. They realised that history made them end up in France, but that is still very much imposed on them.

I do agree that wartime annexation did a lot to increase anti-German sentiment. Also in Luxembourg this was the case. And it's also the reason why the Swiss German evolution toward speaking Standard German got reversed to speaking dialect almost everywhere, because Hitler wanted all ethnic German areas annexed in his Reich and they were worried about that situation.
National Socialism was popular almost nowhere in Europe except Germany and Austria and most of all in North Germany at that and Austria it was even 'just' a sizeable minority.