A study on Karlal tribe of Pakistan who claim European ancestry

[Noman]

Background: Karlal Shah was the founding father of Karlal. He believed to be migrated from South Afghanistan to Indian subcontinent. Karlals claim their ancestry back to Alexander The Great. Hapolgroups observed in the Karlal tribe during the study were haplotypes H (European) 25%, N (Asian) 24%, and N1 (Eurasian) 21%.

GENETIC ANALYSES OF THE MAJOR TRIBES OF ABBOTTABAD AND MANSEHRA DISTRICTS THROUGH DENTAL MORPHOLOGY AND DNA ANALYSES
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Thesis/2908S.pdf

* I have ordered a book from Pakistan to study the ancestry and origin of Karlals tribe. This book has detailed historical information with genetic ancestry composition. Book is written by Pakistani Geologist Sardar Aurangzeb Karlal

[Shah-Jehan]

Actually many groups like the Kalash have never really claimed descent from Alexander before recent times, and even today only a minority of them do so even today. The Kalash for one, say that their founder was a horse-riding "horned" conqueror, which the British had attributed to Alexander due to their light features. Since then, the myth has spread among many. Today, the myth is sustained by Kalash people themselves since it attracts hordes of tourists, and thus money, which generates much of what they earn. Genetically, they aren't really related to Greeks at all, as much as they are to their surrounding Dardic and Pashtun populations. Their religion is also not ancient Greek like, but rather a pre-classical (Vedic) form of Hinduism, in which they worship Indo-Aryan Gods such as Indra, and Varendra, which they call Indr and Varendr respectively. Their language to say is Dardic branch of Indo-Aryan.

[Noman]

Actually many groups like the Kalash have never really claimed descent from Alexander before recent times, and even today only a minority of them do so even today. The Kalash for one, say that their founder was a horse-riding "horned" conqueror, which the British had attributed to Alexander due to their light features. Since then, the myth has spread among many. Today, the myth is sustained by Kalash people themselves since it attracts hordes of tourists, and thus money, which generates much of what they earn. Genetically, they aren't really related to Greeks at all, as much as they are to their surrounding Dardic and Pashtun populations. Their religion is also not ancient Greek like, but rather a pre-classical (Vedic) form of Hinduism, in which they worship Indo-Aryan Gods such as Indra, and Varendra, which they call Indr and Varendr respectively. Their language to say is Dardic branch of Indo-Aryan.

Kalash and Karlals are two different tribes. I guess the study has already been made on Kalash people, and it is already figured out that they have no connection to Alexander Thee Great. However, Karlals do claim it. I didn't believe it either until I came across the genetic study done by University of Hazara.

[Shah-Jehan]

Kalash and Karlals are two different tribes. I guess the study has already been made on Kalash people, and it is already figured out that they have no connection to Alexander Thee Great. However, Karlals do claim it. I didn't believe it either until I came across the genetic study done by University of Hazara.

Yeah, I know they aren't Kalash, but I'm just saying that such folklore is most likely to be false. Anyway, does the study only use haplogroups or do a genome analysis?

[Noman]

Yeah, I know they aren't Kalash, but I'm just saying that such folklore is most likely to be false. Anyway, does the study only use haplogroups or do a genome analysis?

yep! I don't know about genomic analysis, but hapologroup references are given. Go to page 112 and onwards.

[Shah-Jehan]

yep! I don't know about genomic analysis, but hapologroup references are given. Go to page 112 and onwards.

Well, that's not very solid to base the Greek connection on though. The lineages could be from various periods of time.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

Aryans nordics

[Noman]

Well, that's not very solid to base the Greek connection on though. The lineages could be from various periods of time.

Agree! I am very skeptic being them the descendants of Alexander III. They came to Pakistan in 1200 AD, not during the reign of Alexander. For clarification, I have ordered a book on their history, which contains detailed migration reports and DNA results.

[Hadouken]

what are karlal ? can you post some pics of them

I only know Karl Dall and yes he is european

[turbosat]

Background: Karlal Shah was the founding father of Karlal. He believed to be migrated from South Afghanistan to Indian subcontinent. Karlals claim their ancestry back to Alexander The Great. Hapolgroups observed in the Karlal tribe during the study were haplotypes H (European) 25%, N (Asian) 24%, and N1 (Eurasian) 21%.

GENETIC ANALYSES OF THE MAJOR TRIBES OF ABBOTTABAD AND MANSEHRA DISTRICTS THROUGH DENTAL MORPHOLOGY AND DNA ANALYSES
http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Thesis/2908S.pdf

* I have ordered a book from Pakistan to study the ancestry and origin of Karlals tribe. This book has detailed historical information with genetic ancestry composition. Book is written by Pakistani Geologist Sardar Aurangzeb Karlal

Long study, but skimming through it, it does not do YDna? Why not?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AKarlal
Confusion with article[edit]
Is this a Pashtun tribe? If not, what are they? What language do they speak? Do they live only in Pakistan? I can't figure it out, the what links here seems to imply that they are Pashtun, but I don't want to add it. I'll check what the rest of the interweb has to say about it. Dina 15:48, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Clarification[edit]
They are not Pashtun, the link to "Federally Administered Tribal Areas" was incorrect, FATA is on the opposite side of the North West Frontier Province and borders Afghanistan.

The Karlal inhabit the eastern part of NWFP, in what used to be the Hazara division of the NWFP, this area was made up of the following districts Abbottabad, Batagram, Haripur, Kohistan and Mansehra.

See the map below: Hazara is area 1 in, whilst FATA is area 7.

Vandal Deletions of cited content[edit]
119.153.52.215 has deleted entire section of cited content from this article for no assigned reason which is reproduced here .

“ Originally Hindus, their conversion to Islam is of comparatively modern date. Thirty years ago their acquaintance with the Mohomedan faith was still slight and though they now know more of it , and are more careful to observe it ,relics of their former Hindu faith are still observable in their social Habits .[1][2] ”
“ ’He further noted that the Karlals are identical in origin and character with the Dhunds. This would make the Karlals one of the Rajput tribes of the Hills lying along the left bank of the Jhelum ;and they are said to claim Rajput origin though they have recently set up a claim to Kayani Mughal descent, in common with the Gakkhars; or as a variety that their ancestor came from Kayan, but was a descendent of Alexander the great! [3]

Persistent problems[edit]
With ref to my previous comments, and of other editors/users including User:bonadea, I must sadly say that problems with this particular article persist-mainly:

There are many unverified statements, some of them in my view, of very doubtful sort, and there were no references at all. I have added one. Yet, I feel the article is not really reliable.
In addition, there is disputable material here, am sorry, which I think consists of puffery/self or 'tribal' promotion and some of the statements are quite vain.
Probably most problematic of all, once again, a long list of 'notable' people has been added and I do really believe that there MUST please be some sort of basic criteria set up for notability and proper verifiability, especially for all these tribes, clans etc on WP Pakistan related articles/pages, where this sort of 'directory service' or use, seems to be the norm, inspite of repeated requests to desist-- at least, please, the 'notable' people should have proper articles (not just hasty stubs) of their own, or some similar condition/s. Else, its an uphill task constantly going over same ground, again and again.