Old Prussian ancestry of East Prussians

[Peterski]

The Allies should have taken the moral high ground and left all of the pre-1933 borders.

There was no way anyone would allow East Prussia to remain part of Germany, because it was one of causes of WW2.

At best you could hope for something like this (but this would be good around 1918, in 1945 it was too late for this):

[Bobby Martnen]

There was no way anyone would allow East Prussia to remain part of Germany, because it was one of causes of WW2.

At best you could hope for something like this (but this would be good around 1918, in 1945 it was too late for this):

East Prussia should have been turned into it's own state - German-speaking without expulsions - sort of like a Baltic version of Austria

[Peterski]

East Prussia should have been turned into it's own state - German-speaking without expulsions - sort of like a Baltic version of Austria

Not all of East Prussia was German-speaking, there were Polish-speaking and Lithuanian-speaking areas too.

[Bobby Martnen]

Not all of East Prussia was German-speaking, there were Polish-speaking and Lithuanian-speaking areas too.

The problem is that the Polish-speaking parts that were left with Germany after WWI voted to stay German - there should have been another plebiscite in that area - Polish or Lithuanian areas that wanted to join those countries should have been able to, and the German parts and parts that didn't should have either stayed with Germany or become independent

[Peterski]

The problem is that the Polish-speaking parts that were left with Germany after WWI voted to stay German

Yeah because most of them were Lutheran, not Catholic.

But the plebiscite took place when Poland was in a very difficult military situation, fighting against the Soviets.

[Bobby Martnen]

Yeah because most of them were Lutheran, not Catholic.

But the plebiscite took place when Poland was in a very difficult military situation, fighting against the Soviets.

I agree that there should have been another plebiscite post-WWII. If the allies had truly cared about fairness and self-determination (instead of allowing Stalin's greedy land grab), they would have done that in all German-Polish, German-Czech, German-French border zones + South Tyrol and Danzig/Gdansk.

[Peterski]

Self-determination is mostly a hoax anyway. Just look at your own country in 1861, or Catalonia now.

[Bobby Martnen]

Self-determination is mostly a hoax anyway. Just look at your own country in 1861, or Catalonia now.

When done through a free and fair vote, it is a wonderful thing. When done through a rigged election (i.e. French annexation of Savoy in the mid-19th century), it's a hoax

[Veslan]

Here's how I see it:

1. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Allies should have taken the moral high ground and left all of the pre-1933 borders.

2. I don't think Poles or Poland are to blame for what happened to the Eastern Germans - it's mostly Stalin/the USSR's fault, although the Western Allies were complicit.

3. The Kresy had a large Polish population that was even the majority in some places (i.e. Lemberg, Grodno, Vilna), and the plurality in others. It was becoming more and more Polish as time went by, and thus would not have been lost eventually.

4. Trying to undo what was done in the 1940s now would just cause more suffering, and is thus not a wise idea. Although I wouldn't mind Poland getting Lemberg back...

1. "Wrong" is a relative term. The Germans took up brutality and disrespect, they got brutality and disrespect in return. As simple as that.

2. The true Polish government wanted some new territories as well. Maybe a bit more limited, in comparison to what Poland has reveied at the end, while still keeping the Kresy. The Germans would have been deported anyway as traitors or simply people unwanted on the Polish soil, just like in Czechoslovakia by the Polish government anyway if the Soviets didn't take care of it first. Also in my opinion Poland should ave actually received even more lands from Germany, more precisely Sorbian Lusatia and the entire Belt area. The Lusatians Slavs were left under the Germanic boot, and that is not good.

3. Only in Lithuania, big cities in Belarus, and territories nearby Lwów. There was actually an idea of Poland still having Grodno, Brześć and Lwów, but Allies have given it up. And Kresy would not have been fully polonized because of Ukrainian and to a esser degree Belarusian nationalists making terrorist attacks against the Polish population and the state.

4. There are no serious plans of taking Kresy back. This would be a similiar idea to for an example the British trying to re-annect Zimbabwe, because in one moment it had a significant White Anglo-Saxon population. Our government focus on influencing Ukraine in a diplomatic way and aim to create Central European alliance instead of attacking it's neighbours and annecting territory just becasue 80 years ago it had a Polish majority. In my opinion it should care a little more about Poles left in Central Lithuania though, because they are seriously discrimanted and if for an example Poland was acting in the same manner to Polish Germans as Lithuania acts to Lithuanian Poles, we would have been already sanctioned if not invaded.

[Bobby Martnen]

1. "Wrong" is a relative term. The Germans took up brutality and disrespect, they got brutality and disrespect in return. As simple as that.

2. The true Polish government wanted some new territories as well. Maybe a bit more limited, in comparison to what Poland has reveied at the end, while still keeping the Kresy. The Germans would have been deported anyway as traitors or simply people unwanted on the Polish soil, just like in Czechoslovakia by the Polish government anyway if the Soviets didn't take care of it first. Also in my opinion Poland should ave actually received even more lands from Germany, more precisely Sorbian Lusatia and the entire Belt area. The Lusatians Slavs were left under the Germanic boot, and that is not good.

3. Only in Lithuania, big cities in Belarus, and territories nearby Lwów. There was actually an idea of Poland still having Grodno, Brześć and Lwów, but Allies have given it up. And Kresy would not have been fully polonized because of Ukrainian and to a esser degree Belarusian nationalists making terrorist attacks against the Polish population and the state.

4. There are no serious plans of taking Kresy back. This would be a similiar idea to for an example the British trying to re-annect Zimbabwe, because in one moment it had a significant White Anglo-Saxon population. Our government focus on influencing Ukraine in a diplomatic way and aim to create Central European alliance instead of attacking it's neighbours and annecting territory just becasue 80 years ago it had a Polish majority. In my opinion it should care a little more about Poles left in Central Lithuania though, because they are seriously discrimanted and if for an example Poland was acting in the same manner to Polish Germans as Lithuania acts to Lithuanian Poles, we would have been already sanctioned if not invaded.

1. The German government's atrocious actions don't justify committing atrocious actions against innocent civilians.

2. The true Polish government's territorial demands were much more limited and reasonable. You seem to view shrinking Germany as much as possible as desirable.

3. The Allies betrayed the Poles to the Soviets, I completely agree. More and more Polish settlement would have eventually reduced the Ruthenians to a very small minority.

4. In 1800, there were no serious plans for Jews to take Palestine back. Things can change.