Im Leaving Catholicism for Good Coming Home to Orthodoxy

[Óttar]

Dont betray Bohemond, Baldwin and Godfrey

I am not Christian, but if I had to pick, as interesting as Eastern Orthodoxy is, I could not leave the Roman Church. Its aesthetics and rituals are too vivid. Also, there are a number of Eastern Rite churches that are in communion with Rome, so it would still be possible to attend a Byzantine liturgy and be a good Catholic. I am a son of Rome, not Greece.

[Herr Abubu]

Sedevacantists say Pope John XXIII was invalidly elected and someone else was elected but death threats kept them from claiming the office.they must come up with this conspiracy theory because to hold otherwise would be to admit a council of the catholic church was not infallible and a valid pope uttered heresy proving papal infallibiloity wrong.but even if this was the case and we give them this,it doesnt make things any better on three accounts:

1.all bishops excommunicated themselves

2.even if there was a bishop or 5 in hiding,they can't ordain without a pope ratifying a ordination of a bishop and pope pius in vacantis apostolicae sedis said noone can usurp the pope's Jurisdiction during a interregnum.

3.numerous popes throughout history were Heretics,even before vatican II.

Yes, it's really ridiculous how every Catholic discussion on anything ultimately devolves into hairsplitting and bitching about such and such codex, encyclical and so on. Something is dearly wrong if church matters devolve into senseless legalism.

As for heresy, the whole of Catholic theology is pretty messed up. All the stuff about the Immaculate Heart, Original Sin, Immaculate Conception (and therefore Mary's status as "coredemptrix") and so on. Historian James Kelley (as well as Jay Dyer) has some interesting and hilarious observations and ideas on those topics.

[monfret]

Yes, it's really ridiculous how every Catholic discussion on anything ultimately devolves into hairsplitting and bitching about such and such codex, encyclical and so on. Something is dearly wrong if church matters devolve into senseless legalism.

As for heresy, the whole of Catholic theology is pretty messed up. All the stuff about the Immaculate Heart, Original Sin, Immaculate Conception (and therefore Mary's status as "coredemptrix") and so on. Historian James Kelley (as well as Jay Dyer) has some interesting and hilarious observations and ideas on those topics.

Yes their understanding of mary is really messed up.all humans except Christ have fallen short of the glory of God and sinned.

[Loki]

monfret, you reckon then that since Vatican II the world has had no valid Pope? And who decides who the next real Pope should be?

[monfret]

monfret, you reckon then that since Vatican II the world has had no valid Pope? And who decides who the next real Pope should be?

noone can ever elect a new pope save Christ.All bishops elected by the last true pope as seen as such by Sedevacantists are dead.they couldn't ordain new bishops or cardinals without ratification by the pope.any usurping of Jurisdiction(this means confirming a bishop)is declared null and canceled by pope pius in vacantis apostalicae sedis.all sedevacantist sacraments are invalid during a interregnum.that means confirmation,marriage and mass.

[Herr Abubu]

Yes their understanding of mary is really messed up.all humans except Christ have fallen short of the glory of God and sinned.

It is, but due to their belief in Original Sin, basically the error that sin is genetic, deriving from St. Augustine's views, Mary had to be born without Original Sin unlike the rest of humanity to have given birth to Jesus, who only in this way could have been without OS, and is therefore deified. At the extremes of this theological trend in Catholicism the Theotokos even became part of the Holy Trinity.

[Loki]

noone can ever elect a new pope save Christ.All bishops elected by the last true pope as seen as such by Sedevacantists are dead.they couldn't ordain new bishops or cardinals without ratification by the pope.any usurping of Jurisdiction(this means confirming a bishop)is declared null and canceled by pope pius in vacantis apostalicae sedis.all sedevacantist sacraments are invalid during a interregnum.that means confirmation,marriage and mass.

So, how is Orthodoxy valid then?

[Óttar]

It is, but due to their belief in Original Sin, basically the error that sin is genetic, deriving from St. Augustine's views, Mary had to be born without Original Sin unlike the rest of humanity to have given birth to Jesus, who only in this way could have been without OS, and is therefore deified. At the extremes of this theological trend in Catholicism the Theotokos even became part of the Holy Trinity.

What is this? I've never heard of such a thing. Sergei Bulgakov, a Russian Orthodox mystic and theologian raised Sophia (Holy Feminine Wisdom) to divinity, but he was excommunicated by the Orthodox church. Excessive veneration of the Blessed Virgin is bound to happen in a religion like Christianity that is so patriarchal. In psychology, the most intense archetype is that of the Mother; the Hero comes in distant second. The Mother was the first icon to be venerated in human history, so feelings of adoration toward the Feminine are only natural in Homo Religiosus.

[monfret]

the Siri theory is simpely untenable,siri denies ever having been elected as pope mand even if he was it would still prove sedevacantists wrong because siri was a vatican 2 ist for the rest of his life and was in communion with the Vatican 2 sect

Siri himself was never part of any split, and remained true to the established church.[4] He was appointed president of the Italian Episcopal Conference by Pope John in 1959, and remained in the post under Pope Paul until 1964.[17] He sat on the Board of Presidency of the Second Vatican Council from 1963 until its close in 1965.[18] He was a candidate for pope—still representing the conservatives—in the 1978 conclave that followed the death of Paul VI, where he is thought to have led in the early ballots before being overtaken by Albino Luciani (John Paul I),[19] and again two months later in the October 1978 conclave, where he is also thought to have come within a few votes of election.[20] He was Archbishop of Genoa from 1946 to 1987, and at the time of his retirement he was "the last remaining active cardinal named by Pope Pius XII."[2] Siri never made any reference to the "Siri thesis", nor was there any mention of it in his New York Times obituary,[2] in the biography written by Raimondo Spiazzi,[21] or in a speech given by Giulio Andreotti on the centenary of Siri's birth in 2006

even if siri was the true pope it would mean nothing ,as he was a heretic himself and it would prove Vatican 1 wrong.but it was a fact John XIII was truly elected as pope and promulgated heresy.

[monfret]

So, how is Orthodoxy valid then?

Orthodoxy is valid because it rejects the heresies of faith alone and double predestination and is apostolic unlike protestantism.protestantism says the gates of hell prevailed against the church of Christ for 1200 years something promised would never happen by our lord.