Farewell to eastern Europe

[The Ripper]

Mhmm, there is still pretty big difference between ex-communist and old "capitalist" countries.Different mentalities, at least in everyday life, IMO.

I would say that even Finland has a rather different mentality from "old capitalist" countries. Or at least had until recently. Perhaps its due to "residual communism" like the YYA-treaty and Finlandization, coupled with a rather "corporatist" social democratic state?

[Äike]

I can assure you, from what I've seen on these boards, there is also a huge gulf in the mentalities between countries like Estonia and the United Kingdom.

Definitely, considering the radically different problems those 2 countries have.

What does "ethnoculturally Eastern" mean, and how can you apply that to Greece, and not Estonia? Estonia is an Eastern European country, albeit one of the most developed and that shares some similarities with Scandinavia and Finland.

The European territory of the West according to Huntington. The map represented the Orthodox East and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) West. Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.

But Poland is probably more "Western" than Estonia. If there is such a thing.

Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.

Why not? It's not only Slavs who live in Eastern Europe.

But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.

[The Ripper]

The European territory of the West according to Huntington. The map represented the Orthodox East and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) West. Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.

Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.

Also we share ties with Orthodox Setos, Karelians, etc and have been ruled by Orthodox Russia for significant periods of time. Its no good to pretend we're completely "untainted" of this foul easterness. Better to accept it and move on.

But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.

If the terms are used synonymously, they're being abused.

[Loki]

Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.

They share ties with other Slavs as you have mentioned, but also have strong ties with Germany. I consider Poland more "Western" than Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Geographically it certainly is, and culturally the designations are probably more subjective.

But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.

What Slavic culture and mentality? Is there such a monolithic thing? There is great variation among Slavs, too.

And no, when I think "Eastern Europe" I do not only think Slavic. There are Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians too, for starters. But Slavs dominate in every way in that region because of their abundance, of course.

[esaima]

I would say that even Finland has a rather different mentality from "old capitalist" countries. Or at least had until recently. Perhaps its due to "residual communism" like the YYA-treaty and Finlandization, coupled with a rather "corporatist" social democratic state?

Yeah, for me social democratic and Nordic (!) are nearly synonyms.
For some reason Estonia is not so social democratic

[Äike]

Also we share ties with Orthodox Setos, Karelians, etc and have been ruled by Orthodox Russia for significant periods of time. Its no good to pretend we're completely "untainted" of this foul easterness. Better to accept it and move on.

So, you are saying that 10 000 people affected the entire almost 1 million population of Estonians enough for there being something Orthodox/eastern about us?

If the terms are used synonymously, they're being abused.

Well, Finland is geographically located in Eastern-Europe just as much as Estonia. But no one calls Finns, Eastern-Europeans. Because the term is used synonymously everywhere and by everyone with Slavic culture etc.

Finland was also part of the Russian Empire and it became independent at the same time as Estonia. But 50 years of Soviet rule "magically" changed 1000 years of history and turned people who have been historically in the Central- and Northern-European cultural sphere, into Eastern-Europeans. Estonians are Eastern-European in the same sense as Germans from Brandernburg. In any other definition, we aren't.

[Tomasz]

Poland is geographically Central European and culturally Western. However we were always bordering Eastern countries, many Ruthenians were living inside of Poland's borders. But in most cases they were forcibly polonized and "Westernized" rather than other way around (which caused anti-Polish riots by the way). These close ties with some Eastern people surely had some impact on Polish culture but we are predominantly Western anyway.

Poles considered themselves to be eastern outpost of the West and defenders of western christianity in this area of Europe.

Oh, and Karl - I don't see anything wrong with being "Eastern" anyway. I'm myself fascinated by Russian culture, I'm planning to learn this language and travel through this country.

[Äike]

They share ties with other Slavs as you have mentioned, but also have strong ties with Germany. I consider Poland more "Western" than Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Geographically it certainly is, and culturally the designations are probably more subjective.



What Slavic culture and mentality? Is there such a monolithic thing? There is great variation among Slavs, too.

And no, when I think "Eastern Europe" I do not only think Slavic. There are Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians too, for starters. But Slavs dominate in every way in that region because of their abundance, of course.

By the same sense, Northern-Koreans aren't Koreans.

Yeah, for me social democratic and Nordic (!) are nearly synonyms.
For some reason Estonia is not so social democratic

Estonia was very social democratic before WW2, probably more social democratic than some countries across the Baltic sea, they dominated the politics for the short time of independence. That's why all the former Baltic-German estates were given away to the people. Things have changed now and most Estonians do not like anything containing the word socialism.

[Loki]

Estonia was very social democratic before WW2, probably more social democratic than some countries across the Baltic sea, they dominated the politics for the short time of independence. That's why all the former Baltic-German estates were given away to the people. Things have changed now and most Estonians do not like anything containing the word socialism.

Well, Estonia perhaps needs to shrug off the Soviet past and move on - back to where they once were.

[Äike]

Poles considered themselves to be eastern outpost of the West and defenders of western christianity in this area of Europe.

I'll show you the historic outpost and border between the West and the East.



On one side(the Estonian/western side), there's the Hermann Castle, founded by the Danes in 1256, which was purchased by the Livonian Teutonic Knights Order on 29 August 1346. On the other side, the Russian/eastern side is the Ivangorod fortress, which was built in 1492.

This border between the West and the East is almost a milennia old.

Oh, and Karl - I don't see anything wrong with being "Eastern" anyway. I'm myself fascinated by Russian culture, I'm planning to learn this language and travel through this country.

Me neither, I just dislike being wrongly labeled. I do not have any bad feelings towards Belorussians, Ukrainians etc.