"Germans" from East Prussia

[Óttar]

Well they sure af had German forenames, and not all of their surnames are Polish.

[Peterski]

The border changes after WWII weren't justifiable at all from an ethnic or moral standpoint.

I have to disagree. Taking land away from Germany was justifiable because they started and then lost the war. East Prussia should have never become part of Germany to begin with, because it had no land connection with the rest of Germany.

If anything it could be a separate state like Switzerland for example.

[Bobby Martnen]

I have to disagree. Taking land away from Germany was justifiable because they started and then lost the war. East Prussia should have never become part of Germany to begin with, because it had no land connection with the rest of Germany.

If anything it could be a separate state like Switzerland for example.

Ethnically cleansing tens of millions of people because of the actions of their government is not justifiable. Giving some border areas with a mostly Polish or mixed population would have been fine, giving away the eastern quarter of the country and violently expelling all of the inhabitants was a war crime committed by Stalin.

Alaska has no land connection with America, should it never have become part of America?

[Peterski]

Most of them escaped on their own before the war ended. See here:

Spoiler!

And Christopher Duffy in his "Red Storm on the Reich" wrote:

"(...) Again and again we hear of the Russian tank forces opening fire on trains, or driving straight down columns of civilian refugees, crushing people and animals and machine-gunning the survivors in the ditches and fields. Massacre, rape and plunder contributed to the very marked decline in discipline that was evident in the last ten days of January, when the Russians moved into German territory. The marshals were appalled, and in his ferocious order of 27 January [1945] Konev cited a number of spectacular lapses and gave a long list of commanders who had been consigned to penal battalions. One of his officers remarked on a tank battalion where the tanks were so tightly packed with loot and plunder that the members of the crew could not move inside and would have been unable to go into action in case of emergency. (...) The Russian way with German civilians first became known after the Germans recaptured the town of Nemmersdorf in East Prussia, which was the scene of a wholesale massacre of the population in October 1944. This experience was relived on every theatre of the Eastern Front, and on every occasion it provoked in the German troops an intense desire for revenge. In Silesia the grisly findings extended into March. At Sagan the Germans beat Russians to death with shovels and rifle butts; at Striegau, which was cleared by the 208th Infantry Division, the few surviving civilians were wandering around literally out of their minds. 'After Striegau there was no question of giving quarter. When the soldiers were asked to hold themselves back, they replied in words to the effect that: 'After what we saw and lived through at Striegau, you can't ask us to take prisoners' (Ahlfen, 1977, 169; see also Neidhardt, 1981, 379). (...)"

That triggered a huge panic-driven flight of German civilians:

"(...) As early as 28 January 1945, the Wehrmacht calculated that 3.5 million German civilians were on the move in the East. By the end of the war the number of German non-combatants fleeing from the Russians had nearly doubled to about 7 million. Most of those who tried to stay in their homes were evicted after the war, a process which by 1950 brought the number of Germans displaced by the Russians and their clients to a final total of 11 million. (...)"

And who says about expelling the rest? They can stay, but the territory goes to Poland.

I mean that's what I would do: annex the area with the inhabitants.

Alaska has no land connection with America, should it never have become part of America?

The USA did not invade Canada and start a World War over land connection with Alaska.

And they did not genocide 6 million of Canadians in the process.

[Bobby Martnen]

Most of them escaped on their own before the war ended. See here:

Spoiler!

And Christopher Duffy in his "Red Storm on the Reich" wrote:

"(...) Again and again we hear of the Russian tank forces opening fire on trains, or driving straight down columns of civilian refugees, crushing people and animals and machine-gunning the survivors in the ditches and fields. Massacre, rape and plunder contributed to the very marked decline in discipline that was evident in the last ten days of January, when the Russians moved into German territory. The marshals were appalled, and in his ferocious order of 27 January [1945] Konev cited a number of spectacular lapses and gave a long list of commanders who had been consigned to penal battalions. One of his officers remarked on a tank battalion where the tanks were so tightly packed with loot and plunder that the members of the crew could not move inside and would have been unable to go into action in case of emergency. (...) The Russian way with German civilians first became known after the Germans recaptured the town of Nemmersdorf in East Prussia, which was the scene of a wholesale massacre of the population in October 1944. This experience was relived on every theatre of the Eastern Front, and on every occasion it provoked in the German troops an intense desire for revenge. In Silesia the grisly findings extended into March. At Sagan the Germans beat Russians to death with shovels and rifle butts; at Striegau, which was cleared by the 208th Infantry Division, the few surviving civilians were wandering around literally out of their minds. 'After Striegau there was no question of giving quarter. When the soldiers were asked to hold themselves back, they replied in words to the effect that: 'After what we saw and lived through at Striegau, you can't ask us to take prisoners' (Ahlfen, 1977, 169; see also Neidhardt, 1981, 379). (...)"

That triggered a huge panic-driven flight of German civilians:

"(...) As early as 28 January 1945, the Wehrmacht calculated that 3.5 million German civilians were on the move in the East. By the end of the war the number of German non-combatants fleeing from the Russians had nearly doubled to about 7 million. Most of those who tried to stay in their homes were evicted after the war, a process which by 1950 brought the number of Germans displaced by the Russians and their clients to a final total of 11 million. (...)"

And who says about expelling the rest? They can stay, but the territory goes to Poland.

I mean that's what I would do: annex the area with the inhabitants.



The USA did not invade Canada and start a World War over land connection with Alaska.

And they did not genocide 6 million of Canadians in the process.

In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right. Instead of letting those who fled the Red Army become refugees, the allies should have guaranteed them a safe return to their homelands, and also ensured that no borders were changed.

The only reason any borders were shifted were Stalin's lust for more land.

I'm not advocating a return of the Eastern formerly German territories now, nor do I think Poland has any blame for what happened, but I still think it was wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

[Peterski]

In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right. Instead of letting those who fled the Red Army become refugees, the allies should have guaranteed them a safe return to their homelands, and also ensured that no borders were changed.

I'm not advocating a return of the Eastern formerly German territories now, nor do I think Poland has any blame for what happened, but I still think it was wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

Territorial change wasn't wrong, those were rightfully Polish lands anyway.

Just because someone speaks German doesn't mean they have to be part of Germany. The whole idea of ethnic-based nation states is stupid, and it was never implemented in Western Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Belgium, Switzerland and the UK have always been multi-ethnic).

BTW, when is the USA going to give California back to Mexico? Already 45% of its population are Hispanics, and soon they will be the majority.

You stole it from Mexico in 1848 and expelled its Hispanic inhabitants to the south.

The only reason any borders were shifted were Stalin's lust for more land.

Sorry but this is total bullshit. Your President and British Prime Minister also wanted it. Ever heard about the Morgenthau Plan? Its implementation was also seriously considered.

BTW, my family lost many lifes during WW2. Mainly murdered by the Germans. And then you sold my country to Commies for 45 years. Americans have no moral high ground.

In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right.

As I said, expulsion was wrong, but annexation of territory was right. Nothing wrong about it at all. That had been Polish land before.

In fact Americans planned to totally dismantle Germany and split it into several smaller countries, but later changed their mind.

[Peterski]

and also ensured that no borders were changed.

After every war, the losers have to cede some territory to the victors.

It works like this since the beginning of human civilization. Look for example what happened to Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance. I don't know why do you think that Germans deserved special treatment despite starting a World War and genociding entire nations.

Not to mention that support for Hitler was especially high among Eastern Germans, ca. 50% of them were fervent Nazis.

In fact I believe that Stalin showed mercy by letting them live.

[Bobby Martnen]

Territorial change wasn't wrong, those were rightfully Polish lands anyway.

Just because someone speaks German doesn't mean they have to be part of Germany. The whole idea of ethnic-based nation states is stupid, and it was never implemented in Western Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Belgium, Switzerland and the UK have always been multi-ethnic).

BTW, when is the USA going to give California back to Mexico? Already 45% of its population are Hispanics, and soon they will be the majority.

You stole it from Mexico in 1848 and expelled its Hispanic inhabitants to the south.



Sorry but this is total bullshit. Your President and British Prime Minister also wanted it. Ever heard about the Morgenthau Plan? Its implementation was also seriously considered.

BTW, my family lost many lifes during WW2. Mainly murdered by the Germans. And then you sold my country to Commies for 45 years. Americans have no moral high ground.



As I said, expulsion was wrong, but annexation of territory was right. Nothing wrong about it at all. That had been Polish land before.

In fact Americans planned to totally dismantle Germany and split it into several smaller countries, but later changed their mind.

It's clear that we have fundamentally different worldviews about ethnicity and nationality.

Hispanics have mostly immigrated to California in the last 60 years - it's completely different from Pomerania et. al.

Roosevelt and Churchill betrayed Eastern Europe, I don't disagree on that. I don't think they have moral high ground.

Some of the land had been Polish almost a millenia before - it would be like Greece claiming all of Asia Minor, the Levant, and Egypt based on the Byzantine Empire.

After every war, the losers have to cede some territory to the victors.

It works like this since the beginning of human civilization. Look for example what happened to Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance. I don't know why do you think that Germans deserved special treatment despite starting a World War and genociding entire nations.

Not to mention that support for Hitler was especially high among Eastern Germans, ca. 50% of them were fervent Nazis.

In fact I believe that Stalin showed mercy by letting them live.

France didn't lose any French territory after Napoleon (I'm not counting Napoleon's conquests - Germany should have lost all land conquered after 1933, but not Weimar land)

Paraguayans are linguistically and culturally very similar to their neighbors, unlike Germans and Poles. That's more equivalent to Canada annexing Oregon without any ethnic cleansing.

At least the craziest idea (Germany loses all land east of the Elbe) didn't pass.

[Peterski]

Paraguayans are linguistically and culturally very similar to their neighbors.

No they aren't. Ask any Argentinian, Uruguayan or Brazilian if Paraguay is culturally close.

For example Brazilians speak Portuguese while Paraguayans speak Spanish and Guarani.

Hispanics have mostly immigrated to California in the last 60 years.

California was part of Mexico all the way until 1848, and Spanish colonies before that.

Nowadays Mexicans who immigrate to California are just returning to their native lands.

Some of the land had been Polish almost a millenia before.

But most of it had been Polish much more recently. For example entire East Prussia had been Polish until 1657, and some parts of East Prussia had been Polish even longer - until the First Partition in 1772 (for example the region of Warmia).

[Bobby Martnen]

No they aren't. Ask any Argentinian, Uruguayan or Brazilian if Paraguay is culturally close.

For example Brazilians speak Portuguese while Paraguayans speak Spanish and Guarani.



California was part of Mexico all the way until 1848, and Spanish colonies before that.

Nowadays Mexicans who immigrate to California are just returning to their native lands.



But most of it had been Polish much more recently. For example entire East Prussia had been Polish until 1657, and some parts of East Prussia had been Polish even longer - until the First Partition in 1772 (for example the region of Warmia).

I don't know much about South America, sorry if I misrepresented things there.

There was virtually no Hispanic population in the American Southwest - the vast majority of Hispanics were in the land that is today Mexican.

I'm talking about Silesia, Pomerania, and West Brandenburg. East Prussia was a unique case, but had a mostly German population, and thus should have become an independent state - a Baltic Austria - if detached from Germany.

I also want to make it clear that I don't think Poland is to blame for the ethnic cleansing or border changes, nor do I think they should be reversed today. They were a nasty part of the past that shouldn't have happened, and I think it's important to recognize that they were unjust, but that they cannot be reverted without an even greater injustice.