I2a-Din in 900s AD Poland

[Peterski]

it's completely logical to assume they lived exactly in your fucking Pripyat marches.

Pripyat marshes is not even the place where Proto-Slavs originated from. That area was pretty much uninhabited during the Bronze and Iron Ages. That area could not support hundreds of thousands of people (and this is how numerous Early Slavs had to be at the beginning of their expansion). If anything Proto-Slavs could perhaps live all around the Pripyat marshes, but not in the marshes themselves.

Eastern Poland is definitely not excluded from possible places of Slavic ethnogenesis.

[cosmoo]

Pripyat marshes is not even the place where Proto-Slavs originated from. That area was pretty much uninhabited during the Bronze and Iron Ages. That area could not support hundreds of thousands of people (and this is how numerous Early Slavs had to be at the beginning of their expansion). If anything Proto-Slavs could perhaps live all around the Pripyat marshes, but not in the marshes themselves.

Eastern Poland is definitely not excluded from possible places of Slavic ethnogenesis.

It was a figure of speech, as in "ok, just if we don't know his further ancestry, why assume it's Slavic out of blue"?
Damn, are you always so literal?

[Peterski]

I suspected that it was a figure of speech but just wanted to clarify that for everyone, because some people still think that the Pripyat marshes is the actual place where Slavs came from.

The Pripyat marshes were uninhabited (according to archaeologists).

Besides, even without this guy, you know very well why theory of I2a1b-Din participating in Slavic ethnogenesis doesn't work.

Why? Because it is originally Non-Indo-European?

But in such case you would also need to say that I1 did not participate in Germanic ethnogenesis.

[Peterski]

In Niemcza we also have one not-so-Slavic result (J2a).

Yes, but this sample has Eastern affinities.

It is probably a typically Ossetian subclade of J2a. Sarmatian?

[cosmoo]

Why? Because it is originally Non-Indo-European?

But in such case you would also need to say that I1 did not participate in Germanic ethnogenesis.

No, but because of reasons I mentioned hundreds of times in the past.
-I2a1b-Dinaric is subclade of Disles. Overwhelming majority of Disles is situated in non-Slavic lands.
-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed. But it appears that most of (not all!) I2a1b-Din carriers arrived on Balkans separately from carriers of other Slavic haplogroups.
-It is distributed inequally even in Yugoslavia. I2a1b-Din is much more common in mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps, while R1a is most common in northern, more fertile parts. Doesn't sound as if they arrived in same migration, does it?
-Nordtvedt estimates TMRCA of I2a1b-Din at 500 B.C. somewhere around (then non-Slavic) course of Vistula (with this new result, its age will increase).
-Oldest I2a1b-Din is found in Motala12 sample.

[Peterski]

-Nordtvedt estimates TMRCA of I2a1b-Din at 500 B.C. somewhere around (then non-Slavic) course of Vistula (with this new result, its age will increase).

In 500 BC areas to the east of Vistula were "Slavic", or at least Balto-Slavic.

Germanic expansion to the east of the Vistula was several centuries later.

-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed.

Ever heard about things such as genetic drift, bottleneck, founder effect?

If among ancestors of migrating Slavs there were 70 K with R1a and 30 K with I2a, and later 50 K of them went southward and became south Slavs, while 50 K went westward and became West Slavs, there is no certainty that the number of men with I2a was equal (15 K) in both groups. Due to factors such as random chance, I2a could be much more numerous in the group ancestral to South Slavs.

Proto-West Slavs could be for example 5 K of I2a and 45 K of R1a.

Proto-South Slavs could be for example 25 K of I2a and 25 K of R1a.

East Slavs - Ukrainians and Belarusians - have a lot of I2a. The only exception are Northern Belarusians who are not-so-Slavic (they are largely descended from Slavicized Balts).

[cosmoo]

In 500 BC areas to the east of Vistula were "Slavic", or at least Balto-Slavic.

Germanic expansion to the east of the Vistula was several centuries later.

Proto-Slavs expanded from their homeland to Poland after depopulation caused by East Germanic tribes migrating southeast.

IEver heard about things such as genetic drift, bottleneck, founder effect?

If among ancestors of migrating Slavs there were 70 K with R1a and 30 K with I2a, and later 50 K of them went southward and became south Slavs, while 50 K went westward and became West Slavs, there is no certainty that the number of men with I2a was equal (15 K) in both groups. Due to factors such as random chance, I2a could be much more numerous in the group ancestral to South Slavs.

Proto-West Slavs could be for example 5 K of I2a and 45 K of R1a.

Proto-South Slavs could be for example 25 K of I2a and 25 K of R1a.

Ever heard of probability? No? Then go and learn. Calculate me probability of I2a1b-Din being assimilated into Slavs, then suddenly becoming numerous in only some branches as they spread from homeland. Or better yet, calculate me probability of I2a1b-Din settling mountains on western Balkans, and R1a settling plains, if they were all part of the same migration as you suggest? Yeah... it is extremely low. I'm not interested in pseudo-scientific blabbering and grasping for the straws which relies on extremely small probability that something happened.

[Jana]

-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed. But it appears that most of (not all!) I2a1b-Din carriers arrived on Balkans separately from carriers of other Slavic haplogroups.
-It is distributed inequally even in Yugoslavia. I2a1b-Din is much more common in mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps, while R1a is most common in northern, more fertile parts. Doesn't sound as if they arrived in same migration, does it?

Wrong. It is around 20% in Polesia, and Polesia has more inhabitants than dinaric alps togheder. By the way, why do you call Herzegovian hills ''mountanious areas'' ? We are spekaing about few hundered meters tall hills.
And R1a isn't distributed in plains of ex-Yugoslavia, it is most common in Slovenia, which is far more mountanious than all Herzegovina togheder.

You speak Slavic language, you have lot of north-east European admixture and no much north-western. It is obvioulsly a Slavic marker. And Croats and Serbs settled exactly in the dinaric alps, not in Panonnian plains (where they have spread afterwards). Gothic theory is your wishful thinking.

[Peterski]

June 8, 2017 Draft tree for I-L621:

http://i2aproject.blogspot.co.uk/201...or-i-l621.html

--I-CTS10228*: There are four known branches of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric branch, and for many years there was only one known man who was CTS10228+ but who didn't belong to any of the branches, this man has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland. Now there is a second CTS10228+ A2512- Y4460- Z17855- S17250-, this man has paternal ancestry from Alsace (southwestern Germany/France border area, now part of France). The Polish-ancestry and Alsatian-ancestry man don't share any unique novel variants/SNPs. There are many SNPs listed as equivalent to CTS10228, and it's possible that the Alsatian-ancestry man is ancestral (negative) for some of these, he has submitted his BAM file to YFull and we will learn the answer soon. Like all other I-CTS10228 men, the Alsatian-ancestry man has the distinctive marker value DYS565=9.

Apparently we are talking about this guy's uncle:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post251138

I thought I would mention my uncle who I am the admin for tested positive for L621 and negative for I-CTS4002. My terminal SNP according to FTDNA is CTS10936. I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
Thanks

[cosmoo]

Wrong. It is around 20% in Polesia, and Polesia has more inhabitants than dinaric alps togheder.

Absolute numbers don't mean shit. By your logic Germany is more of an I2a1b-Din land than Herzegovina.
No wonder you picked Polesia, most cherrypicked area out of all. I'm not denying northern Slavs do have I2a1b-Din. But it didn't participate in their ethnogenesis, it was gradually assimilated starting from the end of 5th century.

By the way, why do you call Herzegovian hills ''mountanious areas'' ? We are spekaing about few hundered meters tall hills.
And R1a isn't distributed in plains of ex-Yugoslavia, it is most common in Slovenia, which is far more mountanious than all Herzegovina togheder.

I am not talking about mere elevation. I am talking about harshness of terrain and suitability for agriculture. Slovenian mountains are consisted of woods, fields and pastures. Herzegovinian mountains are mostly extremely rocky. And I'm not only talking about your western Herzegovina, but also about eastern part. Why would invading Slavs, people heavily relying on agriculture, choose to settle in Herzegovinian rocks? They did indeed settle in Dinaric Alps, but only in "župas", fertile river plains. Mountains were inhabited by population that was considered non-Slavic, and was primarily pastoral.

You speak Slavic language, you have lot of north-east European admixture and no much north-western.

I'm not interested in "muh kalkulators" crap. Your precious calculators like GEDmatch and MDLP say we are closer to Romanians, Gagauz, and southern Germans, than we are to Bosnians (many of which, especially Serbs, hail from Montenegro). Not even going to mention other BS regarding them.
Anthropologically, we are nothing like Slavs.

You speak Slavic language

Frenchmen speak a Latin-derived language, yet they don't descend from Romans.