Could Indo-Europeans have spread by sea?

[Nyx]

Apparently the Indo-European language contains many words related to boat/boating sea and lake. Here's a quote from an interesting article:

I took a good look at the terms describing the PIE homeland. There are several words meaning sea, lake and shore, and several for mountain or hill. There are quite a few terms describing trees of various species; yew, beech, willow, birch, fir, ash, oak/hornbeam; all of these describe a fairly cool environment. There’s also a word for snow, and one for ice. Wherever they lived had big lake/seas and boats, as well as mountians. It also knew bears, wolves and and lions (lions used to be seen all through Eurasia and Africa). There have been attempts to put words like monkey and elephant into PIE, but these seem to be Semitic loan words. Leopard however, may deserve a place, as these are found in mountainous areas in the Caspain/Black Sea area. The flora suggests somewhere cooler than Anatolia.

This area is also mountainous; and home to willow, birch,yew and hornbeam trees. It even has a leopard native to it (suggested but not proven as a PIE word). The best match I can find for the flora is on the Black Sea coast of the trans-Caucasus area around Krasnodar, so pretty much the area that was picked for the Kurgan hypothesis, just slightly more into the mountainous areas to the South. I’m not pro the steppes areas in the more Northern possible zone as a homeland, as these wouldn’t account for the plethora of sea/boating related terms, or the trees, or the mountains. These people had plenty of words for mountain and boating, and the steppes, by their nature, are flat, fairly treeless and not easy to sail on.

Something I've been wondering as well is that some of the Gallic tribes (who descended from IE) were experts at seafaring, which doesn't make sense since if IE spread only by land, the knowledge about seafaring would have been lost. Also from the black sea the entire coast of Europe is available for colonization. It could also explain the r1b in Africa since you would need a boat traversing the Nile to get there.

I don't know anything about genetics, anyone knows if that's possible?

[Ouistreham]

This is quite interesting, and I'd like it to be true (I have a passion for sailing, I'm just back from a cruise in the Swedish West Coast archipelago — Göteborg - Marstrand - Lysekil, for those who know).

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors, by land, and that only in the second phase they begun developping sea-faring abilities. This is the story of the Greeks, the Celts, the Romans, the Germanics.

Besides, the fact that IE Urheimat was extending from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic Sea (an area with plenty of mighty rivers in the South-East, and lakes in the North-West) may explain the many commonalities between IE languages as for the words related to waterways and navigation.

[Nyx]

This is quite interesting, and I'd like it to be true (I have a passion for sailing, I'm just back from a cruise in the Swedish West Coast archipelago — Göteborg - Marstrand - Lysekil, for those who know).

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors, by land, and that only in the second phase they begun developping sea-faring abilities. This is the story of the Greeks, the Celts, the Romans, the Germanics.

Besides, the fact that IE Urheimat was extending from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic Sea (an area with plenty of mighty rivers in the South-East, and lakes in the North-West) may explain the many commonalities between IE languages as for the words related to waterways and navigation.

There's no reason to think they couldn't have used both methods. The Veneti in Gaul as an example were very different culturally from the surrounding tribes and didn't see themselves as Celts. Read this excerpt, I think you'll find it interresting. I've highlighted the important part.

"Here is how Caesar describes the Veneti: "This people is very much the strongest on the maritime coast. It is they who possess the greatest number of ships, and its fleet engages in trade with the Isle of Britain. It is superior to others by its navigational science and experience. Finally, as the sea is violent and liberally beats upon a coast where there are but few ports, of which they are the masters, almost all those who normally sail in these waters are their serviteurs".

These Veneti, who occupied the southern coast of Armorica, almost the entire expanse between the Vilaine and the Odet, were the masters of navigation in the Atlantic, but also in the Channel since they had commercial ties with the Isle of Britain. In any event, this contradicts the earlier assertion that the Celts were land bound. Or else, it implies that the Celts were amenable to the fact that the Veneti occupied themselves with navigation in their stead. If this is the case, it would further support the contention that the Veneti were not Celts, but a Celtically influenced nonindigenous population. What complicates this matter is that there were Veneti elsewhere who were by chance, skillful navigators. These are the Veneti of the Adriatic, otherwise known as the Venetians. Regarding them the Greek historian Polybius said, "This ancient nation is hardly distinguishable from the other Gallic peoples by dress and custom, but they speak a different language" (II, 17). But Strabo is more affirmative: "I would be inclined to believe that the Adriatic Veneti are a colony of the Oceanic Veneti" (IV, 4). In addition one cannot help but compare the name of the Veneti with that of the Venedotia from northwest Wales, which in Welsh becomes Gwynedd. And as if by chance, it was those Britons, who for the most part came from the northern area of Wales, that emigrated during the sixth and seventh centuries to the ancient land of the Veneti and formed there the Browaroc'h, or the Vannetais. It so happens that Gwynedd was a strong kingdom in permanent contact with Ireland that was seemingly subject to a Gaelic influence that certain Welsh mythological tales would seem to bear out. This doesn't rule out the possiblity of Gwynedd's reciprocal Welsh influence upon the Irish. And in this case, what do we make of the strange warrior fraternity of the Fiana of Ireland whose king is Finn? The name of Finn and that of the Fiana are indeed from the same root as that of Gwynedd, Venedotia, and Veneti. The name of Veneti, which has provided the Italian Venezia, the French Vannes (and through reconstruction Venetes "Veneti"), and the Armorican Breton Gwyned, in fact from the ancient Celtic vindo that has a meaning of "white, handsome blond, sacred, of good race."

As you can see there is some evidence that the Veneti from Gaul could have a connection with the Venetians in Italy and the Venedotia in wales. Still doesn't prove anything but it's interesting to note.

[Rethel]

So, we now know, what is this story really about...

[Nyx]

I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means...

The term "Wends" derived from the Roman-era people called in Latin Veneti, Venedi or Venethi, in Greek Ουενεδαι / Ouenedai. This people was mentioned by Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy as inhabiting the Baltic coast.

[Fractal]

So, we now know, what is this story really about...

I thought the Vikings were Scandinavians, and not Poles.

[Ouistreham]

I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means...

This is purely coincidental.
None of those groups was related in any way to any of the others.

BTW Venice became a formidable sea power but quite late in history. The town was founded by Veneti who took refuge on muddy islands off the coast at the time the Roman Empire was crumbling down and Hunnic and Germanic invasions ware raging.

"Here is how Caesar describes the [Gallic] Veneti: "This people is very much the strongest on the maritime coast. It is they who possess the greatest number of ships, and its fleet engages in trade with the Isle of Britain. It is superior to others by its navigational science and experience. Finally, as the sea is violent and liberally beats upon a coast where there are but few ports, of which they are the masters, almost all those who normally sail in these waters are their serviteurs".

These Veneti, who occupied the southern coast of Armorica, almost the entire expanse between the Vilaine and the Odet, were the masters of navigation in the Atlantic, but also in the Channel since they had commercial ties with the Isle of Britain. In any event, this contradicts the earlier assertion that the Celts were land bound. Or else, it implies that the Celts were amenable to the fact that the Veneti occupied themselves with navigation in their stead. If this is the case, it would further support the contention that the Veneti were not Celts, but a Celtically influenced nonindigenous population.

The Veneti (of present-day Brittany) occupied a strategic location on the Tin Route that connected English Cornwall to the Mediterranean area. The paramount importance of tin as a component of bronze alloys made it a very sought after resource in the Bronze Age. Most probably they were taught shipbuilding and sailing by (non-IE) Phoenicians, and then Greek merchants. (This very ancient Mediterranean connection could perhaps offer a explanation for the more than normal Med presence in Brittany, Cornwall and Wales)



Those Veneti were and are still Celts. However, the Vannetais (as they are called nowadays) have always stood apart from other tribes in present day Western France. Their Breton dialect is completely different from the others. Some scholars have speculated that the Vannetais (in department Morbihan) could be actually more Gallic than insular Celts, other suppose it might be the other way around.

Anyway, the Celts have never been, by and large, great navigators in ancient times, less so than their geographical locations would suggest. The Germanics have been a lot more convincing in that department. Very early, as soon as the Saxons developed their techniques to build longboats, they were challenging Roman fleets along the Atlantic, Channel anhd North Sea coasts, thus predating the Vikings by a few centuries.

[cosmoo]

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors

A little remark- they didn't actually ride them for most of the time, they mostly used them to draw wagons and chariots. They also used chariots in battle. Riding itself was used most commonly while maintaining herds of livestock.
By the way, evidence of horses being ridden can be seen in cave art of Palaeolithic/Mesolithic Europe, although most of archaeological evidence suggests that they never domesticated horses. I wonder if perhaps it was sporadic taming rather than total domestication.
Supposed Grotte de La Marche cave drawing:

So, we now know, what is this story really about...

Actually, IE learned craft of boat building from pre-IE inhabitants of the north. After learning it, ships seem to have supplanted horses in some areas.

The worshippers of Odin and Frey were especially interested in the horse; horse sacrifices were made to these gods, and to Frey was dedicated the cult of the embalmed horse's penis. In Norway the horse was replaced to a certain extent as a funeral object by the ship; and the ships were made by the carls, who had learned their craft from their Megalithic predecessors and ancestors. With the introduction of iron, ship-building flourished, and the Viking was nothing more nor less than a sea-going central European Nordic, who had exchanged his horse for a steed suited to a new environment, with the coöperation of a vigorous body of indigenous craftsmen and warriors, into whose racial body his own group was soon blended.

[Peterski]

A little remark - they didn't actually ride them for most of the time

Actually there is evidence that they frequently rode horses, at least this Bell Beaker guy:

I0805, Quedlinburg, Germany (2467-2142 BC)
Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152

"This 35-45 year-old individual is osteologically and genetically male. The body was buried in NO-SW orientation with the head in the north facing east. Grave goods include three silex arrowheads, a few potsherds, and animal bones. A notable observation from the physical anthropological examination is traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

[blondbeast]

Apparently the Indo-European language contains many words related to boat/boating sea and lake. Here's a quote from an interesting article:

No.

Germanic words of non ie origin
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins:

Seafaring

ship Schiff schip skepp navis πλοίο
(ploio) плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))
strand (beach) Strand strand strand litus, acta παραλία
(paralia) берег
(bereg)
ebb Ebbe eb ebb decessus, recessus άμπωτις
(ampotis) отлив
(otliv)
steer steuern besturen styra guberno κυβερνώ
(kuberno) управлять
(upravlyat)
sail segeln zeilen segla navigo πλέω
(pleo) плавать
(plavat)
north Norden noorden nord septentriones βορράς
(borras) север
(sever)
south Süden zuiden syd australis, meridies νότος
(notos) юг
(yug)
east Osten oosten öst oriens ανατολή (anatoli) восток
(vostok)
west Westen westen väst occidens δύση
(dysi) запад
(zapad)