Da Vinci, Catalan

[Comte Arnau]

After Columbus (Colom) and Vespucci (Despuig), Leonardo would have had Catalan origins too. Or so a recent book suggests. For those who hadn't enough with the Da Vinci Code...

The basic points of this doc, based on the book, are:

- The Da Vinci family would have given the name of Vinci to the village (not the other way round), after an old ancestor of Leonardo, Rainiero da Vinci, bought the lands of the Castello Guidi in 1254. The origin of the surname -and of other nearby villages called similarly- would be in the northern Catalan village of Vinçà (Vinciano in the Middle Ages), nowadays in French Catalonia. The French anti-Cathar Crusade would have made many Occitans and Catalans leave their towns and flee to Italian lands. (Catalans felt north/central Italy somewhat closer to them than rival Castile, as the geopolitics of the Crown of Aragon was focused eastwards and there was a Cathar/troubadour sort of shared past.)

- The heraldry coat of the Da Vinci family, showing three bars, would clearly point at its North Catalonian origin, at that time part of the Kingdom of Majorca, the flag of which had three red bars on gold background instead of the four Catalan bars.

- Some descendants of proved Catalan lineages, with three-bar coats, were strongly linked to Leonardo during his life and after him, in matters of legacy.

- Da Vinci, a Cathar himself, would have used art rather as a resource to express secretly heretic ideas than just for art's sake. Important works of him, right after his two 'lost years' that the book attributes to a journey to Barcelona (where he had family), apparently show landscapes from the Montserrat mountain and its surroundings. The Virgin of the Rocks would hint, therefore, to the Virgin of Montserrat hosted in the abbey of the Montserrat Rocks. The doc even suggests a connection between his drawing of Leda and the Swan (or goose, 'auca, oca') with the land of Oc, Occitania, and his Lady of the Cat with the land of the Cat, Catalonia. It goes as far as to suggest too a connection between the famous Mona Lisa's smile and the calm smile of Montserrat's la Moreneta, the holy Virgin of the Catalans...

While I certainly think that all these theories, even if they had some truth, are kind of useless (so no need for the Italians here to stone me, for the moment ), at least they show some interesting things and food for thought, as well as connections for all those who love conspiracies and esoteric stuff (and for those who, like me, also used to see Montserrat in Da Vinci's mountains ). Who knows, maybe the Columbus-Vespucci-Da Vinci connection was in part due to their 'common hidden ancestry'...

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[Tyrrhenoi]

I am sure Roman Queen (the Vampire of V) is going to love this thread

so no need for the Italians here to stone me, for the moment

We'll see about that

[Lábaru]

I am sure Roman Queen (the Vampire of V) is going to love this thread



We'll see about that

Catalan and Basque nationalism are as fanatical and absurd that periodically make theories to steal the historical merits of the other (usually those of other Spanish), of course nobody, except the four Taliban Supporters of independence, can give credence to these stories, only try to convince the "Talibans" that are special.

Ibex course is too smart to give credit to this history, but others ...

[Foxy]

Leonardo Da Vinci, son of ser Piero Da Vinci, a noble man from Vinci, Tuscany, not only he was Italian, but he was also noble and from Tuscany, the region of Italy with less foreign influxes in his epoque.

When in Italy there is a famous person who is half Italian half something else, we say it. For exemple Ugo Foscolo, Italian poet very famous at school, was half Italian from Dalmazia so of Venecian origins half Greek (he was born in Zante from a Greek mother, Diamanta Spathis).

Also Vespucci and Colombo were Italians (and John Cabot too, real name Giovanni Caboto). Magellano and Da Gama were Portugueses.

[Alvarado]

The origin of Cristóbal Colón is unknown.

De la patria, origen y nombre del Almirante Cristóbal Colón.

"De manera que cuan apta fue su persona y dotada de todo aquello que para cosa tan grande convenía, tanto más quiso que su patria y origen fuesen menos ciertos y conocidos".

Hernando Colón, Historia del almirante Don Cristóbal Colón.

Américo Vespucio became a naturalized Castilian in 1505.

"Doña Juana, por la gracia de Dios, (...) Por hacer bien y merced a vos Amerigo Vezpuche, florentín, acatando vuestra fidelidad é algunos vuestros buenos servicios que me habéis fecho, é espero me haréis de aquí adelante, por la presente vos hago natural destos mis reinos de Castilla y de León..."

[San Galgano]

All i have to say is:


LOL


Da Vinci was a fellow of mine, a tuscan genious as there were plenty others in that time too, any other nation or country gave so much genious to the world as Tuscany did in that time.
Leonardo Da Vinci, catalan. LOL

[Foxy]

The origin of Cristóbal Colón is unknown.




Américo Vespucio became a naturalized Castilian in 1505.

Colòn was a native brought by Colombo in Spain to work as interpreter. He adopted the surname Colòn in honour to Colombo, but CRISTOFORO COLOMBO was Italian and the Columbus' Day in the USA is the day during which Italian-Americans celebrete their origins in USA, who knows why...

[SaxonCeorl]

Even if Da Vinci's ancestors did come to Italy from Catalunya in the 13th century, wouldn't they have mixed with Italians so much that by the time of Leonardo's birth, his Catalan blood would be negligible?

[Foxy]

Even if Da Vinci's ancestors did come to Italy from Catalunya in the 13th century, wouldn't they have mixed with Italians so much that by the time of Leonardo's birth, his Catalan blood would be negligible?

Spaniards came to Italy in XVII century... -_-
In XIII the Normans came, but not in Tuscany...

[SaxonCeorl]

Spaniards came to Italy in XVII century... -_-
In XIII the Normans came, but not in Tuscany...

I'm just basing it on what Ibex said about Leo's ancestors coming to Italy in the 13th century.