The decline of the Arab civilization

[poiuytrewq0987]

At one time when Islam rose and took large swaths of land from the Byzantine Empire and formed the Umayyad Caliphate that did great advancements in fields of math, science and literature take place. However after the collapse of the Islamic caliphates we've seen a steep decline of their civilization as more extremist elements took hold. The elements I believe are primarily responsible for holding back the Arabs who feel strongly connected to Islam. The question is how did this happen and why do they regard Islam so important to their lives whereas most of us consider religion important but would never go to such lengths to promote it as the Arabs have.

I believe that finding the root cause of their decline will be an important part in reversing it. I believe that if we are to co-exist peacefully with them on this planet then we must eliminate elements that keep their civilization poor, backwards and deficient. There is mutual benefit to be seen from this. Restoring normal development of their civilization (i.e. westernization of the Arab world, bringing them out of the medieval age and into the modern age) can eliminate the demand of immigration from their lands into ours. I believe that this is what most on here want.

[Óttar]

French and British expansion removed traditional Islamic social and legal authorities (The jurists, the ulema) replacing it with a Frenchified or Anglicised class of native rulers who were disconnected with the typical Arabic fellahin or farmer/peasant class. The modern printing techniques and Protestant influence (with I suspect, an emphasis on texts and literalism as the foundation of religion) effected the propagation of a "fundamentalist" Islam. Socialist political thought also later influenced the Arab world. Technological advancements in the West had a lot to do with it as well.

[Loddfafner]

Fundamentalist versions of Islam crushed Arabic scholarship in the middle ages. There were a few latecomers like Ibn Khaldoun in the 15th century, but the fundies got em too.

Shifts in trade routes that let Europeans bypass the middle east did not help as much of their prosperity depended on the silk road.

The Mongols were another factor.

[Adalwolf]

I believe that if we are to co-exist peacefully with them on this planet then we must eliminate elements that keep their civilization poor, backwards and deficient.

Peaceful co-existence with radical muslims is nothing short of impossible. It has been attempted vigorously through out the ages to no avail. Dedicated muslims believe wholeheartedly that Islam is the only way and any other religion or groups of people are just vile degenerates unless they bow down to Muhammad...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Peaceful co-existence with radical muslims is nothing short of impossible. It has been attempted vigorously through out the ages to no avail. Dedicated muslims believe wholeheartedly that Islam is the only way and any other religion or groups of people are just vile degenerates unless they bow down to Muhammad...

Yes, but you have got to ask yourself what gives radicalism vigor? 90% of the time it's because of poverty. The poverty stems from corruption, fundamental Islam that have had a foothold after Arab scholars were largely killed off, and hostile actions by European governments. If we can fix the problems and approach them via integrated diplomatic solutions then the problem will be largely fixed. What I meant by that, is that we take an active role in helping the development of Arab economies and eliminate corruption by having our personnel integrated in Arab governments responsible in carrying out the new policy.

With the restoration of prosperity goes away radicalism which will make a large number of Arabs moderate making radicalism a fringe element in their society as much as Neo-Nazis and KKK are fringes in Western society.

[Adalwolf]

The big problem to what you propose is that radical or not, muslims are constantly hostile to any influence from the western sphere of the world. The USA has been over there for decades, basically stealing their oil and trying to impose democracy which utterly failed.

It would be better in my opinion, if we just backed off from them and let them try to handle their affairs on their own. The direct reason why terrorism and hatred exists in the west is because of the same type of formula that you think would work...

[lei.talk]

Yes, but you have got to ask yourself what gives radicalism vigor?
90% of the time it's because of poverty....
With the restoration of prosperity goes away radicalism...

prosperity < industrialisation < capitalisation

وَأَحَلَّ اللّهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا

one creative capitalist is helping.

[Susi]

Dedicated muslims believe wholeheartedly that Islam is the only way and any other religion or groups of people are just vile degenerates unless they bow down to Muhammad...

I'm not sure if dedicated = radical... I think you can be dedicated but open-minded still.

The big problem to what you propose is that radical or not, muslims are constantly hostile to any influence from the western sphere of the world. The USA has been over there for decades, basically stealing their oil and trying to impose democracy which utterly failed.

Really? Because one of my colleagues is Muslim and he's really open-minded about western influences. I'm sure there's many cases like him? I think we can't label every single one as hostile to western influence when there's many cases to the contrary.

It would be better in my opinion, if we just backed off from them and let them try to handle their affairs on their own. The direct reason why terrorism and hatred exists in the west is because of the same type of formula that you think would work...

I think we shouldn't leave them alone entirely, but I think we should maintain relations as well.

[Adalwolf]

I'm not sure if dedicated = radical... I think you can be dedicated but open-minded still.

Being dedicated especially to religion definitely hinders your ability to have an open mind. Especially Islam, because if you do not know, they're very strict and ritualistic.

Really? Because one of my colleagues is Muslim and he's really open-minded about western influences.

Ok, and how long has his family been living in England for? Why don't you go to the middle east and see how open-minded they are...

I think we shouldn't leave them alone entirely, but I think we should maintain relations as well.

Maybe for trading purposes and neutral diplomatic relations. But countries shouldn't be in there trying to change their politics and way of life.

[Magister Eckhart]

The first mistake being made here is assuming that somehow modern necessarily follows medieval and that all cultures on the earth follow the same trajectory as Western historians have insisted we follow. Drop the artificial linear history and you'll find the picture of European-Mohammedan relations is very different.

I have yet to see a thread on this board so openly and unabashedly imperialist as this one. You are talking about eradicating their culture, not improving it, about blanching it with Westernisms and modernization theory, and calling that "peaceful co-existence". Let's put aside any opinions about whether modernism is a good or a bad thing and just look at what you're suggesting:

The question is how did this happen and why do they regard Islam so important to their lives whereas most of us consider religion important but would never go to such lengths to promote it as the Arabs have.

I believe that finding the root cause of their decline will be an important part in reversing it. I believe that if we are to co-exist peacefully with them on this planet then we must eliminate elements that keep their civilization poor, backwards and deficient.

First and foremost, Westerners did go to great lengths to promote and preserve the faith of their ancestors and later Christianity, using the blade of the sword and tip of the spear to propagate the faith. You think this is backwards because it is in our past, but neglect the decline in power that Christianity has over Westerners. We're looking today at a Europe that overall is more than half atheist. No wonder no one is as dedicated to Christianity as Mohammedans are to their own faith, and those of us who are dedicated to religion, Christian or otherwise, are damned by society as "extremists" or "superstitious" or just "insane".

The assumption, furthermore, that somehow strict social rules and taboos coupled with a dedication to religious morality is somehow backwards or deficient is one of the oldest excuses for liberal imperialism that has ever been used. "Oh, we're not here to rape your land and steal your resources, we want to improve you and make you civilised. You should thank us for colonialising your native land!" Only a liberal could put his boot on a man's throat and beat him within an inch of his life, and then consider the victim an ingrate for not "appreciating what's being done for him". At least authoritarians are honest about the use of naked force and conquest.

What exactly is poor, deficient, or backwards about the Mohammedans? Foreign to us, yes. A threat, assuredly. But inferior? I'm not so sure. Mohammedanism is one of the fastest growing religions on the planet for a reason: in the atheist, secular West, people have long been deprived of the spiritual fulfilment and personal improvement that only religion can provide. Right now Mohammedanism is the single strongest religious force on the planet, and definitely sports the most dedicated followers of almost any other faith.

To discount Arabic/Mohammedan culture and "backwards and deficient" ignores the tremendous strengths that our own culture has lacked for almost two centuries, and the reasons why Mohammedanism poses such a threat to the West. They are stronger than us, spiritually and mentally, and possess a cultural fortitude that is so lacking in the West that those of us who believe in it are forced onto hidden corners of the internet to discuss how wrong our culture has gone on forums like The Apricity. Mohammedans have no need of such places: their cultural strength is widespread and public.

This arrogance of liberal Westerners who believe us to sit at the end of all human history, the finest and most advanced specimen of humanity ever to stand on the earth, is exactly the attitude that is leading today to our wholesale destruction. The inability to respect the enemy is second only to the inability to recognise the enemy in guaranteeing defeat in every circumstance. Endorsing neocolonialism and continuing the failed liberal project to "civilise" the earth is not only not European preservation, it is actively endorsing a key contributor to European destruction, as we continue to equip the coloured world with the tools and the motivation to destroy us as a revenge for the liberals' condescension and abuses of their people.