Ancient genomes from Neolithic North Africa (Fregel et al. 2017 preprint)

[Not a Cop]

Yes it's normal IAM is their Early_neo, though that's just a period it doesn't mean they had farmers there yet, and you can see that just by looking at their LN mtdna samples, they become all typical neo mt's, while in their EN they were not. By the time of their LN 2000 years later they had really a massive influx of proper European neo through "Iberia_EN", which is basically the same than other Euro_EN everywhere from Hungary to Germany, LBK, cardial etc.. and their LN (KEB) is between the Euro_EN and their EN (like 50% replacement/mix). We can see north Africans also bounced back with likely more recent SSA, but yea euro_neo had light skin which was still rare at the time of their expansion, some even light eyes because they were part hunters to begin with, before even entering Europe.

Have they found any evidence for WHG like people in NA, or their WHG is soley due to Farmers migrations?

[Dick]

Likewise, other branches of haplogroup I found in Iberia today, namely I1 and I2a2a (M223), originated in other parts of Europe and arrived to Iberia much later, brought by Germanic tribes in the fifth century CE (see below).

The Iberian matches I have in my Big Y result(not exact matches but close, for example one snp that I don't have) belong to a Suebic subclade.

[Rethel]

The Iberian matches I have in my Big Y result(not exact matches but close, for example one snp that I don't have) belong to a Suebic subclade.

Ask Viejo for naturalization, ole!

[Petalpusher]

Have they found any evidence for WHG like people in NA, or their WHG is soley due to Farmers migrations?

I think it's possible their WHG (around 20%) is only due to their European like EN, this is the sort of value you would get at low k just by injecting 50% Euro_EN in a genome. While going east in NA it might have been more a Levant_neo type of input, which would explain the decrease of WHG there. Their EN is like a mesolithic really, they were still pred Eurasian pre neolithic so i don't know maybe it was all Basal + SSA afterall, like E.Africans, just more basal than SSA. There should be a lot to explore in dstat with these genomes.

[Not a Cop]

I think it's possible their WHG (around 20%) is only due to their European like EN, this is the sort of value you would get at low k just by injecting 50% Euro_EN in a genome. While going east in NA it might have been more a Levant_neo type of input, which would explain the decrease of WHG there. Their EN is like a mesolithic really, they were still pred Eurasian pre neolithic so i don't know maybe it was all Basal + SSA afterall, like E.Africans, just more basal than SSA. There should be a lot to explore in dstat with these genomes.

Well it's interesting, since Coon found some Cromagnid-like forms among Berbers, i guess migrations of WHGs over gibraltar were also possible.

[Nyx]

At the time of Neolithic Subplubial Sahara was markedly different place, it looked more like a savanna. Also, early Neolithic tribes were more pastoralist than agricultural, hereby they're very mobile.

Just because the Sahara would have been more humid doesn't mean it is automatically suitable for agriculture. In the earliest days of the neolithic, apart from the fertile crescent, land suitable for agriculture would have been few and far between.
They simply lacked the tools required to work the soil properly, bronze was unknown they only had flint at their disposal. Most likely (in the early neolithic) they also lacked knowledge of fertilization and crop rotation, the reason why the nile region was so successful was because seasonal floods brought nutrients and watered the ground making it suitable for agriculture again and again without much work. As for them being more "pastoralist than agricultural" and being "mobile", you can't be both farmer and nomadic, that's impossible. Pastoralists were nomadic, but relied on trade with farmers to sustain themselves. I think by the time agriculture was sufficiently developed the sahara was already pretty much a desert. What you're saying could be true although unlikely imo.

What about Cardials and their descendants, more likely they used boats in addition. So they could travel great distances along Mediterranean and Atlantic coasts in all directions, thereby it's not very important how and when they crossed Gibraltar for example, it could happen many times there and back. as can be seen from the KEB sample and contacts of archaeological cultures in Neolithic and Bronze Age

The boats they used in the neolithic were at best large canoes powered by men, unsuitable for traveling long distances especially in the sea. To travel long distances you need large strong ships with sails.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Finally, ancient DNA from North Africa

As expected, IAM is pretty much its own population, not very related to any other ancient population. They have very big fst distances to all Eurasians and SSA's, and the biggest distance yet seen for Mbuti Pygmies.



I expect the f4 and Dstats to show around the same relationships that fst shows. I used my genome (23andMe file) for Dstats some months ago, and the only modern people that were further away from Africans than I am were Native Australians, so I expect the IAM to show the same features, only a lot more pronounced.

Also, the IAM distance to Natufians is gigantic, consistent with Natufians not being able to fill the void left by the lack of a North African component in ADMIXTURE.

Anyway, nice to see confirmation of the appearance of Neolithic Iberians in North Africa.

[Fantomas]

Just because the Sahara would have been more humid doesn't mean it is automatically suitable for agriculture. In the earliest days of the neolithic, apart from the fertile crescent, land suitable for agriculture would have been few and far between.
They simply lacked the tools required to work the soil properly, bronze was unknown they only had flint at their disposal. Most likely (in the early neolithic) they also lacked knowledge of fertilization and crop rotation, the reason why the nile region was so successful was because seasonal floods brought nutrients and watered the ground making it suitable for agriculture again and again without much work. As for them being more "pastoralist than agricultural" and being "mobile", you can't be both farmer and nomadic, that's impossible. Pastoralists were nomadic, but relied on trade with farmers to sustain themselves. I think by the time agriculture was sufficiently developed the sahara was already pretty much a desert. What you're saying could be true although unlikely imo.

The early Neolithic cultures including Cardium one were agro-pastoral on its full meaning being primarily pastoralic (sheeps, pigs, cattle)/hunting societies just with the beginnings of agriculture.
Subpluvial period ending is dated 3500-3000 BC, Cardium culture is 2000 years earlier
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61188/

The boats they used in the neolithic were at best large canoes powered by men, unsuitable for traveling long distances especially in the sea. To travel long distances you need large strong ships with sails.

The seize of boats and lack of sails is not the problem for coastal travels.

As more results were obtained, however, it became clear that in some cases (such as the Linear Bandkeramik and Cardial spreads) these regional rates were more than just “somewhat faster” or “somewhat slower” (10, 21). For instance, because the data indicated an inception of the Neolithic ≈5800 calendar (cal) B.C. in Ligúria, ≈5600 cal B.C. in Valencia, and ≈5400 cal B.C. in central Portugal, the rate of spread across the 2,000 km separating the two ends of the geographic distribution of the Cardial had to have been in the range of 5 km/year. Moreover, the style of decoration in ceramics from undated sites in Portugal implies contemporaneity with the earliest Cardial sites of eastern Spain (10, 22) and hence an even faster spread. It was suggested, therefore, that the mechanism best explaining the west Mediterranean process was maritime pioneer colonization (10, 22), a hypothesis first entertained for southern Portugal by Arnaud (23) and for which the occupation of the Pacific islands (24, 25) provides an analogy.

Average velocity of the EN colonization didn't require a very advanced maritime technologies

[Fantomas]

Well it's interesting, since Coon found some Cromagnid-like forms among Berbers, i guess migrations of WHGs over gibraltar were also possible.

Coon and Lundman were sure that late paleo-European types came from NW Africa

In certain outlying parts of Scandinavia and Ireland, a primitive race - the Palaeo-Atlantid-still lives in small remnants. The Palaeo-Atlantid race is darker than the Nordid race - especially as regards to hair color. It is also coarser than the Faelish subrace, with stronger brow ridges, and a broader, plumper nose. With respect to the ABQ-blood group system, the Palaeo-Atlantid race is high in blood type gene r and low in blood type genes p and q. In the north, this race is named the Tydals race, after a village in central Norway.

[Longobarda]

Migrations Africa-Iberia and Iberia-Africa



Migrazioni Africa-Iberia e Iberia-Africa.jpg