Is Paganism our only hope against Islam?

[2DREZQ]

It's only fair. When two opponents argue about the reality of X without bothering to define what X is, it's impossible for any progress to be made.

Oh, I know. It just amused me because I'm usually the one demanding that someone define their terms.

Holding you to this definition, how is this, "not a search for truth, but a desire for an alternative to the truth"? If we are trying to direct supernormal occurrences via means that are currently unexplained, how does that not imply a search for truth? After all, doing is better done if one knows what one is doing.

Excellent questions!

First of all, I would say that I've never seen anything that constitutes scientific proof that magic actually does anything. The burden of proof does lay with the claimant, after all.
The searchers of old used the best tools they had available, which was little beyond their own senses. They plodded ahead, often hampered as much as helped by the work of those before them. Their "spirit", if you will, lead to the modern scientific method and the technology we have to conduct our search today. Those same men would not continue to use the same methods (In my opinion, granted) today if they were offered the knowledge we have and the use of modern tools. No 14th century equivalent of a gas chromatograph exists. Why gaze at the stars with the naked eye when someone offers the use of the Hubble or Mount Palomar?
Look, I'm not trying to insult or denigrate those who find solace or excitement in the pursuit of Magic (though my own faith tells me it's a dangerous path-but that's another discussion). It seems to be an emotional journey, not an intellectual one. It's an emotional response to the fact that we are revealing mysteries every day-a backlash if you will. It feels like a desire to be part of an inner circle of initiates whose knowledge is beyond the common run of men. How special are you if everybody around you knows all the same stuff, or can google it and go you one better?

I almost forgot: The part about it being currently unexplained. Implicit in that term is the idea that sufficient investigation will reveal an explaination acceptable to the scientific mind. What methods, then should be used in such an investigation? Those millenia old methods that have not revealed much to date, or modern scientific method and tools? And, should we find logical explainations, will it then cease to be magic?

Vasconcelos wrote exactly the same sentence I wanted to write here...Can anyone tell me, how the hell can any religion help us with the Islamic problem?? It´s not possible, no religion is able to save us. We must do it ourselves.

Agreed. The thread starter seemed to be more in the mode of dissing Christianity than lamenting our fate as a civilization before the onslaught of Islam.

Christianity is concerned with the salvation of souls. It "combats" Islam in the world of ideas-presenting an alternative to the "religeon of peace" to the masses. Thus, even if you don't believe in Salvation through faith in Christ yourself, it is only expedient to support the evangelization of the world as a bulwark against the spread of this "faith". Christianity has a historical record of being quite effective in this area (We ARE still here 13 centuries later, after all.)
The immediate concern is what we do in the physical world against those who already believe there are 72 virgins waiting for them? ( Me, I'd pick 15 well trained courtesans...)

Might I suggest a hard look at immigration, tanks, rifles, cruise missiles...

[blan]

the logic people here are using is simply daft. ((Christianity did not repel islam so Christianity is worthless and we need to become pagans)) well by that logic i can say pagan religion is inferior because it failed to repel Christianity. so how strong is paganism if it can not fight off a ((weak spineless religion)) like Christianity

[Savant]

Yah man, when will these ppl learn? Everyone with any common sense can see it's simply because we haven't thrown enough virgins into the volcano lately...

the logic people here are using is simply daft. ((Christianity did not repel islam so Christianity is worthless and we need to become pagans)) well by that logic i can say pagan religion is inferior because it failed to repel Christianity. so how strong is paganism if it can not fight off a ((weak spineless religion)) like Christianity

[2DREZQ]

Yah man, when will these ppl learn? Everyone with any common sense can see it's simply because we haven't thrown enough virgins into the volcano lately...

Well, That could be due to a serious shortage...







of Volcanos.

[Albion]

Blind fools. You are turning yourselves into pawns of the demonic.

Come on, you don't really go around believing that rubbish do you? You sound like some medieval priest about to commence a book burning.

I wish I could say he was wrong, but the fact is that most heathens are drawn to the religion because they want to play-act as Vikings, drink a lot of beer, and get totally badass tattoos, dude. They're little more than drunken bikers with a hammer around their neck instead of a motorbike under them-- in fact, a lot of them are bikers or skinheads. From my experience most "kindred" members are either half-educated community college graduates or drunken, brawling plebs. It's why I abandoned the entire notion of heathen kindreds.

Alas, most of the Neo-Pagan movements are simply stupid or run by hippies. There are some smaller and genuinely decent movements out there though.

That said, we've attracted a lot of soft-headed peasants to the faith, but I'm not sure that this necessarily makes the religion soft-headed.

Yes, indeed it has. Christianity in the UK is associated with two types of people: the elderly interfering types and the country bumpkins. Sadly I have the one or two of the elderly interfering types in my family.

You're right, but I'm sorry, I see no chance of "folkish Heathenry" ever being anything besides a fringe movement. They fight to much and are too addicted to drama. A new person joins and they treat them like shit. They claim it's a "test" but in reality it turns people off.

How would you know, have you applied to even one movement? From the sounds of it you have and subsequently got put off by the one movement and use this to form your bias against the whole Pagan collection of faiths.
Please base statements on facts. Cheers.

Intelligent, well-educated people are a minority in Heathenry and the ones who get into it eventually end up being burned by the chest thumpers anyways.

It takes an intelligent person not to follow the crowd like most people. Christianity is the crowd, and atheism is the other one.
Of course there are some morons and idiots within heathenism and paganism, but Christianity has them in bulk, more idiots and morons than all Pagan movements probably have members put together.

These people need courses in social interaction. Many of them are socially inept unemployed rejects who aren't that intelligent who are lashing out at the society that turned them down, and joining a fringe religion to make themselves feel special.

When times are tough people pray to "god", with this in mind I think its more likely that most turn to the bible to be honest.
Joining a "fringe" religion helps them get in touch with their ancestors or be with like minded people.
You talk as if Christianity is the only religion, some people don't believe it or don't like it for whatever reasons, others do like it - accept their opinions.
Oh, and for the record Christians are known where I live for acting all "high and mighty", that is thinking they're better than other people - just the attributes you proscribe to Pagans above.

This coming from someone who has been a Heathen for 10 years. Being around made me realize most of these people are not brave when they don't have a computer monitor in front of them, so I don't have much faith.

Maybe the lot you were with. And do you really compare Heathens to the French and Catholicism? Heathens can't do such things because they don't number nearly enough to simply go around and make a big show of things.
Heathens don't impose their wills on anything, just the major religions are able and like to do that.

the Roman Catholic Church, and I am not a Catholic, but you just have to open a history book to know that they have defended French-Canadian culture from the Anglo hordes for centuries and they will continue to do so for other hordes. What have Heathens done?

Open your history book and look at the pages covering from modern human's evolution to the Viking conversions to Christianity, that is if your history book goes back that far and you believe in evolution.
See how Europe's foreign religion was imposed on Europe by the sword. Abrahamic religions belong in the Middle East from whence they came.

[Sellanrå]

Not pagan religion per se, which is merely a collection of stories, rites, and rituals, but the pagan mindset that the old tales speak of: bravery, civic duty, devotion to the family, hard work, honesty, loyalty to one's friends, perhaps a certain craftiness ala Odysseus, aggressive warlikeness (i.e. not shirking away from violence), etc.

Christianity has only failed because these lionlike qualities are now lionized in the name of universal brotherhood and divine forgiveness of sins.

"It is the strength of the northern mythological imagination that it faced this problem, put the monsters in the centre, gave them Victory but no honour, and found a potent but terrible solution in naked will and courage. 'As a working theory absolutely impregnable.' So potent is it, that while the older southern imagination has faded for ever into literary ornament, the northern has power, as it were, to revive its spirit even in our own times. "

Beowulf: the Monsters and their Critics, JRR Tolkien

Tolkien was a practicing Christian, yet, he realized our culture's need for courage, 'naked will' and other 'lionlike' values. He also looked to the possibility of strengthening our fading Christian culture with the resources of our latent pagan past. I don't think it was paganism that made our ancestors heroic; it was our ancestors that made paganism heroic. After they converted from paganism they possessed the same solar, aristocratic, warrior spirit as Christians, tempered and improved by charity. Grace perfects nature it does not overthrow or annihilate it. St Thomas' contention is that man's nature, gifts, abilities, etc are not supplanted or smothered by grace, or say his acceptance of Christianity, but actually brought to their perfection or their true fulfillment. In the case of the Germanic people, Christianity should infuse us with more of the northern or gothic spirit, courage, loyalty, honesty, etc. I think history would tend to confirm this up to the modern age and the beginning of secularism. I think this would also be the case for our Gothic traditions in pagan times. The old pagan myths, when understood from a Christian framework, have the ability to make us better Christians (and hence better Goths).

[Wyn]

See how Europe's foreign religion was imposed on Europe by the sword.

It doesn't make sense to speak of 'Europe' as a monolithic entity in this context. The English were converted generally by way of missionaries and when local leaders/kings converted, and there was a steady period of 'dual worship' of the traditional Germanic gods and of the Christian God over a couple of hundred years or so. England's transition to Christianity was rather smooth.

Abrahamic religions belong in the Middle East from whence they came.

Christianity (of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican kind) is far too European to be at home in the Middle East.

[Grumpy Cat]

Come on, you don't really go around believing that rubbish do you? You sound like some medieval priest about to commence a book burning.



Alas, most of the Neo-Pagan movements are simply stupid or run by hippies. There are some smaller and genuinely decent movements out there though.



Yes, indeed it has. Christianity in the UK is associated with two types of people: the elderly interfering types and the country bumpkins. Sadly I have the one or two of the elderly interfering types in my family.



How would you know, have you applied to even one movement? From the sounds of it you have and subsequently got put off by the one movement and use this to form your bias against the whole Pagan collection of faiths.
Please base statements on facts. Cheers.



It takes an intelligent person not to follow the crowd like most people. Christianity is the crowd, and atheism is the other one.
Of course there are some morons and idiots within heathenism and paganism, but Christianity has them in bulk, more idiots and morons than all Pagan movements probably have members put together.



When times are tough people pray to "god", with this in mind I think its more likely that most turn to the bible to be honest.
Joining a "fringe" religion helps them get in touch with their ancestors or be with like minded people.
You talk as if Christianity is the only religion, some people don't believe it or don't like it for whatever reasons, others do like it - accept their opinions.
Oh, and for the record Christians are known where I live for acting all "high and mighty", that is thinking they're better than other people - just the attributes you proscribe to Pagans above.



Maybe the lot you were with. And do you really compare Heathens to the French and Catholicism? Heathens can't do such things because they don't number nearly enough to simply go around and make a big show of things.
Heathens don't impose their wills on anything, just the major religions are able and like to do that.



Open your history book and look at the pages covering from modern human's evolution to the Viking conversions to Christianity, that is if your history book goes back that far and you believe in evolution.
See how Europe's foreign religion was imposed on Europe by the sword. Abrahamic religions belong in the Middle East from whence they came.

Obviously you have mistaken me for a Christian and decided to make a dig at the Canadian education system which is superior to most European countries (except Finland and Switzerland).

When I get a computer I'll make a more in depth response since I don't feel like making a long post on a smartphone.

[poiuytrewq0987]

There is only one true God!



Death to the worshipers of false Gods!

[Albion]

It doesn't make sense to speak of 'Europe' as a monolithic entity in this context

When a religion is foreign to the whole continent it does.

The English were converted generally by way of missionaries and when local leaders/kings converted, and there was a steady period of 'dual worship' of the traditional Germanic gods and of the Christian God over a couple of hundred years or so. England's transition to Christianity was rather smooth.

But in Europe as a whole it didn't always go that way, in Norway it was pretty violent.

Christianity (of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Anglican kind) is far too European to be at home in the Middle East.

Maybe so, but the Middle East is its roots.

Obviously you have mistaken me for a Christian

No, I just got fed up with you using the same tired arguments against Pagans as Liberals and multiculturalists use against us racists . Right-wing, fringe groups... sounds like the familiar baseless insults to me.

a dig at the Canadian education system which is superior to most European countries (except Finland and Switzerland).

Where did I say that? No, I was just talking about sheep following the Shepard actually, this being Christians and Atheists who question nothing.

When I get a computer I'll make a more in depth response since I don't feel like making a long post on a smartphone.

Ah, yeah its awful that way, I know. I use a touch screen smartphone on here sometimes, god how I long for a physical keyboard. up