Dugin and Eurasianism

[Herr Abubu]

When i clicked the video it had 148 views. You have very wierd interests for arrogant "Murica fuck yeah" redneck
You still are not able to handle butthurt caused by different west thread or just geniune interest in Dugin's theories?

Dugin is very against any alliances with China, because he beleives China is maritime civilization and therefore natural enemy of Russia. He believes Japan should be long term partner in the East Asia. He argues that Japan became american bish, only because americans lost "war for China" to Soviet Union. IN any case both maritime civilization of China and US would eventually come to natural union against land civilizations of Russia and Japan.

Exactly, he even believes that Russia should push China southward towards Southeast and South Asia, while taking Northern China, something he took from Leontiev the Byzantinist.

Westerners commenting on Dugin generally have absolutely no clue about him, haven't really read him and wouldn't be able to read him even if they picked up his articles, essays and books.

I've had people argue Dugin, an Old Believer, believes in chaos magic because of an essay he wrote, completely misunderstanding he doesn't write in a dry manner very commonplace in Western academia, but with heavy symbolism and often just hyperbole.

They pick and choose a few things he said and say, "here's Dugin", because they themselves are intellectually only at the level of cheap sloganeering and so project it on whomever they read (and dislike).

[kuqezi]

Exactly, he even believes that Russia should push China southward towards Southeast and South Asia, while taking Northern China, something he took from Leontiev the Byzantinist.

Westerners commenting on Dugin generally have absolutely no clue about him, haven't really read him and wouldn't be able to read him even if they picked up his articles, essays and books.

I've had people argue Dugin, an Old Believer, believes in chaos magic because of an essay he wrote, completely misunderstanding he doesn't write in a dry manner very commonplace in Western academia, but with heavy symbolism and often just hyperbole.

They pick and choose a few things he said and say, "here's Dugin", because they themselves are intellectually only at the level of cheap sloganeering and so project it on whomever they read (and dislike).

Dugin wrote an essay on the 'metaphysics of chaos' clearly advocating for it. Writing off Dugin's occult statements as 'hyperbole' is just self deception. That's just skimming off the top leaving behind his real esoteric stuff. Orthodoxy is just an outer veneer.

Speaking of his heavy symbolism, the symbol of his Eurasian movement is the star of chaos, a western occult symbol.

[Herr Abubu]

Dugin wrote an essay on the 'metaphysics of chaos' clearly advocating for it. Writing off Dugin's occult statements as 'hyperbole' is just self deception. That's just skimming off the top leaving behind his real esoteric stuff. Orthodoxy is just an outer veneer.

Speaking of his heavy symbolism, the symbol of his Eurasian movement is the star of chaos, a western occult symbol.

LOL!

[Profileid]

Dugin wrote an essay on the 'metaphysics of chaos' clearly advocating for it. Writing off Dugin's occult statements as 'hyperbole' is just self deception. That's just skimming off the top leaving behind his real esoteric stuff. Orthodoxy is just an outer veneer.

Speaking of his heavy symbolism, the symbol of his Eurasian movement is the star of chaos, a western occult symbol.

How could you mistake this for an occult symbol?

[kuqezi]

How could you mistake this for an occult symbol?

I don't know if you're being sarcastic but in case you are not:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=star+o...ECFD5BB8647A96

https://www.bing.com/search?q=chaos+...4F65B95D30770A

[Profileid]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic but in case you are not:

https://www.bing.com/search?q=star+o...ECFD5BB8647A96

https://www.bing.com/search?q=chaos+...4F65B95D30770A

I was.
I don't see how this doesn't look blatantly occult to anyone.

[Herr Abubu]

I was.
I don't see how this doesn't look blatantly occult to anyone.

Yes, symbols from some Fantasy novel series is now a deeply occult symbol. The Masonic and other occultic symbols that infest American institutions and symbolism are just a bunch of dudes LARPing, though.

If you read his essay on chaos, he uses chaos in several different meanings and contexts, both good and bad. When Dugin uses chaos as a symbol, he uses it in opposition to 1) Western rationalism 2) the current liberal world order, which he describes.

This is simply squeamishness at the word and symbol of chaos and this is how low opponents of Dugin have to stoop. Here you even have a legitimately pagan-occultic 'thinker' who hates Christianity, and Orthodoxy in particular, slandering Dugin as an occultist and non-Orthodox.

[kuqezi]

Yes, symbols from some Fantasy novel series is now a deeply occult symbol. The Masonic and other occultic symbols that infest American institutions and symbolism are just a bunch of dudes LARPing, though.

If you read his essay on chaos, he uses chaos in several different meanings and contexts, both good and bad. When Dugin uses chaos as a symbol, he uses it in opposition to 1) Western rationalism 2) the current liberal world order, which he describes.

This is simply squeamishness at the word and symbol of chaos and this is how low opponents of Dugin have to stoop. Here you even have a legitimately pagan-occultic 'thinker' who hates Christianity, and Orthodoxy in particular, slandering Dugin as an occultist and non-Orthodox.

Chaos has always been dreaded in Indo-European thought and culture and for good reason. Reducing a heathy loathing of chaos to 'squeamishness' sounds pretty evil.

I get where you're going with your explanation of Dugin's use of chaos. You should know though that serious thinkers have identified rationalism and the liberal order as the chaos itself.

You would think that if Dugin were really Orthodox he would simply adhere to Orthodoxy instead of trying to put together a new ideology. After all the word Orthodoxy does actually imply something.

At least you admit that Dugin's symbol, the star of chaos, is a western occult symbol. By the time Dugin started using it it had clearly already been established as such. Occultist Aleister Crowley, an influence on Dugin, is credited with first establishing the star of chaos symbol in his Book of Thoth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

Chaos magic's connection to Gnosticism:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic

Alexander Dugin: Terror Against the Demiurge:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/openrev...-demiurge/amp/

Dugin's essay 'The Gnostic':
http://arctogaia.com/public/eng/gnostic.htm

Dugin's essay 'The Metaphysics of Chaos', clearly not compatible with Orthodoxy whether you believe in it our not:
http://duginmetaphysicsofchaos4pt.blogspot.com/?m=1

I am not slandering Dugin, I am just showing your interpretation of him to be incorrect.

[Herr Abubu]

Chaos has always been dreaded in Indo-European thought and culture and for good reason. Reducing a heathy loathing of chaos to 'squeamishness' sounds pretty evil.

I get where you're going with your explanation of Dugin's use of chaos. You should know though that serious thinkers have identified rationalism and the liberal order as the chaos itself.

You would think that if Dugin were really Orthodox he would simply adhere to Orthodoxy instead of trying to put together a new ideology. After all the word Orthodoxy does actually imply something.

At least you admit that Dugin's symbol, the star of chaos, is a western occult symbol. By the time Dugin started using it it had clearly already been established as such. Occultist Aleister Crowley, an influence on Dugin, is credited with first establishing the star of chaos symbol in his Book of Thoth: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbol_of_Chaos

Chaos magic's connection to Gnosticism:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_magic

Alexander Dugin: Terror Against the Demiurge:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/openrev...-demiurge/amp/

Dugin's essay 'The Gnostic':
http://arctogaia.com/public/eng/gnostic.htm

Dugin's essay 'The Metaphysics of Chaos', clearly not compatible with Orthodoxy whether you believe in it our not:
http://duginmetaphysicsofchaos4pt.blogspot.com/?m=1

I am not slandering Dugin, I am just showing your interpretation of him to be incorrect.

You take yourself too seriously. You are indeed squeamish and simply react to things you don't like a priori in an emotional manner and then rationalize yourself poorly.

You read things here and there, but you do not understand well and you do not think well. Your motivations aren't sincere or pure in any of this.

You point out that rationalism and the liberal order have been identified as chaos. You also know Dugin's essay on 'The Metaphysics of Chaos', where he explicitly refers to them as chaotic.

It shows you are a very, very poor and very, very superficial reader. You can't seem to understand that Dugin uses chaos 1. in a symbolic and eccentric way and 2. he uses many different meanings for chaos.

If a writer refers to chaos in several different and contradictory ways there are two conclusions. One, the writer is a moron and contradicts himself. Two, he is changing the connotation of the word.

If the second is correct, then whoever concludes the first must be reflecting his own stupidity on the writer. It's something to appreciate about Dugin. The reader is allowed to conclude for himself if he's chaff or wheat.

As for its compatibility with Orthodoxy, this is pure, but bad, rhetoric. You are not Orthodox and you know nothing about what is Orthodox or not, or who is Orthodox or not. It isn't incompatible, it doesn't really pertain to Orthodox teaching.

Finally, Dugin's use of the Symbol of Chaos comes from some fantasy novel series. That fantasy novel series didn't take that symbol from Crowley as it looks nothing alike.

And if you actually read the Wikipedia article, though I've already shown you are a superficial reader (and thinker) the author of that series even explains how he came to it.

[kuqezi]

You take yourself too seriously. You are indeed squeamish and simply react to things you don't like a priori in an emotional manner and then rationalize yourself poorly.

You read things here and there, but you do not understand well and you do not think well. Your motivations aren't sincere or pure in any of this.

You point out that rationalism and the liberal order have been identified as chaos. You also know Dugin's essay on 'The Metaphysics of Chaos', where he explicitly refers to them as chaotic.

It shows you are a very, very poor and very, very superficial reader. You can't seem to understand that Dugin uses chaos 1. in a symbolic and eccentric way and 2. he uses many different meanings for chaos.

If a writer refers to chaos in several different and contradictory ways there are two conclusions. One, the writer is a moron and contradicts himself. Two, he is changing the connotation of the word.

If the second is correct, then whoever concludes the first must be reflecting his own stupidity on the writer. It's something to appreciate about Dugin. The reader is allowed to conclude for himself if he's chaff or wheat.

As for its compatibility with Orthodoxy, this is pure, but bad, rhetoric. You are not Orthodox and you know nothing about what is Orthodox or not, or who is Orthodox or not. It isn't incompatible, it doesn't really pertain to Orthodox teaching.

Finally, Dugin's use of the Symbol of Chaos comes from some fantasy novel series. That fantasy novel series didn't take that symbol from Crowley as it looks nothing alike.

And if you actually read the Wikipedia article, though I've already shown you are a superficial reader (and thinker) the author of that series even explains how he came to it.

I hope we can dispense with personal polemic and stick to the matter at hand.

You say Dugin explicitly refers to rationalism and the liberal order as chaotic (in the true sense as he defines it). This is false as I will demonstrate by quoting him below. Either provide a direct quote to to prove your point or admit you are wrong. The quotes also shows that he is criticizing precisely what he deems to be the metaphorical, 'confused' chaos of the west in opposition to what he deems to be the true metaphysical chaos of the ancient Greeks which he is an advocate of:




----
To begin with: there are two different concepts of chaos. Modern physics and philosophy refers to complex systems, bifurcation or non-integrating equations and processes, using the concept ‘chaos’ to designate such phenomena. They understand by that not the absence of order, but a more complicated form of order that is difficult to perceive as such, and is, in fact, its essence. Such chaos or turbulence is calculable in nature, but with more sophisticated theoretical and mathematical means and procedures than the instruments that classical natural science is dealing with.

The term ‘chaos’ is used here in a metaphorical manner. In modern science we are continuing to deal with an essentially logocentric manner of exploring reality. So the ‘chaos’ here is no more than a dissipative structure of logos, the last result of its decay, fall, and decomposition. Modern science is dealing, not with something other than logos, but with a kind of post-logos, or ex-Logos: logos in the state of ultimate dissolution and regression. The process of the final destruction and dissipation of logos is taken here for ‘chaos’.

In reality, though, it has nothing to do with chaos as such, with chaos in the original Greek sense of the term. It is rather a kind of utmost confusion.

....

If we insist, nevertheless, in doing this, then we should appeal to chaos in its original Greek sense, as to something that proceeds being and order, something pre-ontological.

.....

So the only way to save ourselves, to save humanity and culture from this snare, is to take the step beyond the logocentric culture, towards chaos.

....

Only chaos and the alternative philosophy based on inclusivity can save modern humanity and the world from the consequences of the degradation and decay of the exclusivist principle called logos. Logos has expired and we all will be buried under its ruins unless we make an appeal to chaos and its metaphysical principles, and use them as a basis for something new.
----




^It's amply clear that Dugin is specifically appealing to metaphysical chaos, not metaphorical chaos. These are the only two types of chaos he discusses and he is clearly advocating for the former, not the latter.

As for Orthodoxy etc. Lets just say I know enough about it. I am indeed not Orthodox, but you don't see me telling you that you know nothing about say, liberalism, just because you don't believe in it. That's a very bad argument.

Here we can see that Dugin obviously doesn't believe Orthodoxy is the answer to his problem:




----
We should explore other cultures, rather than Western, to try to find different examples of inclusive philosophy, inclusive religions, and so on. Chaotic logos is not only an abstract construction. If we seek well, we can find the real forms of such intellectual traditions in archaic societies, as well as in Eastern theology and mystical currents.

....

The astronomical era that is coming to an end is the era of the fish constellation, of Pisces. The fish on the shore. The dying one. So we need water now very badly.

Only a completely new attitude to thought, a new ontology, and a new gnoseology can save logos out of the water, on the shore, in the desert that grows and grows, as Nietzsche foresaw.

Only chaos and the alternative philosophy based on inclusivity can save modern humanity and the world from the consequences of the degradation and decay of the exclusivist principle called logos.
----





Dugin believes that something 'new' is needed, not Orthodoxy.

Also in light of all this we can see that Dugin is not some fantasy novel geek that arbitrarily choose the star of chaos as his symbol for Eurasianism. You can't deny that it is was the symbol of chaos magic long before Dugin adopted it. And it's no coincidence that Aleister Crowley is an influence on Dugin.