Tollense warriors PCA (1250 BC)

[Peterski]

Mlukas PCA shows genetically Slavic people in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in 1250 BC:

7 "Slavs" + 1 "Balt" vs. 9 "Germanics". And 3 more Southern mercenaries:
(WEZ16 does not count, because it is an older sample from ca. 2900 BC)

http://physical-anthropology.info/pca3.png







More about that battle:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post4451352

[Peterski]

Bronze Age (ca. 1250 BC) Wezlin (Tollense battlefield) individuals:

WEZ64 - Slavic cluster
WEZ15 - Slavic cluster
WEZ40 - Slavic cluster
WEZ58 - Slavic cluster
WEZ77 - Slavic cluster
WEZ63 - Slavic cluster
WEZ61 - Slavic cluster
WEZ56 - Baltic cluster

WEZ57 - Med cluster
WEZ54 - Med cluster
WEZ53 - Balkan cluster

WEZ35 - Germanic cluster
WEZ59 - Germanic cluster
WEZ71 - Germanic cluster
WEZ51 - Germanic cluster
WEZ74 - Germanic cluster
WEZ39 - Germanic cluster
WEZ48 - Germanic cluster
WEZ83 - Germanic cluster
WEZ24 - Germanic cluster

=================

Phenotype SNPs from Genetiker:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...rman-warriors/

[cosmoo]

Muh clusters will reveal nothing significant whatsoever, direct lineages will. Nor do they prove nativeness of Slavs in that area, as great majority came during recent, historically documented period.

[Peterski]

as great majority came during recent, historically documented period.

Wrong because the migration of Slavs to this area is not historically documented.

The only historically documented migration of Slavs is that to the Balkans.

[cosmoo]

Wrong because the migration of Slavs to this area is not historically documented.

The only historically documented migration of Slavs is that to the Balkans.

Most of the modern-day Poland was decribed as being inhabited by East Germanic tribes around the 1st century AD and after. Not even going to talk about Germany.
Yet you think that proto-Slavs were inhabiting not only Poland, but parts of Germany more than 1000 years earlier? Not only is this completely unsupported by history, archaeology and ancient DNA (the one we have from 2nd-5th century Poland, for example), but Slavic languages would have diverged far earlier if that was the case, and we would not have the level of mutual intelligibility we have today.

[Peterski]

Actually a Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age migration from Poland to the east is confirmed by archeology. Lusatian-Pomeranian population migrated and participated in the formation of Zarubintsy culture.

These genetically Slavic-like Welzin-Tollense warriors must be from the Lusatian culture.

This area (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) was a borderland between Lusatian and Nordic Bronze Age. The battle was most likely fought between "Lusatians" on one side, and "Nordics" on the other.

[Peterski]

Yet you think that proto-Slavs were inhabiting not only Poland, but parts of Germany more than 1000 years earlier? Not only is this completely unsupported by history, archaeology

The battle took place in 1250 BC. Please check what cultures occupied East Germany at that time. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern was the borderland between Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian culture.

It only makes sense that the battle was fought between those two populations.

I will post a map, wait a bit.

[cosmoo]

Actually a Late Bronze Age / Early Iron Age migration from Poland to the east is confirmed by archeology. Lusatian-Pomeranian population migrated and participated in the formation of Zarubintsy culture.

These genetically Slavic-like Welzin-Tollense warriors must be from the Lusatian culture.

This area (Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) was a borderland between Lusatian and Nordic Bronze Age. The battle was most likely fought between "Lusatians" on one side, and "Nordics" on the other.

And again- even if ancestors of proto-Slavs lived there, there was nearly a thousand years of discontinuity.

Those clusters will not prove anything, unlike direct lineages. And remember, deeper evidence suggests that this was not an ordinary battle, but a raid conducted on a large trading convoy which was dealing with copper and tin, so this means combatants could have come from anywhere.

[Peterski]

Let's wait for Y-DNA analysis by Genetiker. Here is where the battle took place:

For me it is obvious, that it was fought between "Lusatians" and "Nordics":

[Peterski]

so this means combatants could have come from anywhere.

But they did not come from anywhere. We have isotope analysis which shows this.

Isotope analysis is for showing geographical origins of ancient individuals. And it detected two major clusters, as well as some outliers who came from other places (these major clusters are surely Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian, while genetically Med individuals came from the south).

It is painfully obvious that it was a battle between Nordic Bronze Age and Lusatian "cultures". And as you can see, one group is genetically similar to modern Poles, the other to Germanics.

there was nearly a thousand years of discontinuity.

Only if we assume that East Germanic tribes replaced descendants of Lusatian population.

That's not what prof. Kostrzewski claimed.

His theory was that Germanic bands only migrated across Poland on their way south. Lusatian population was not replaced by them but stayed in the area, and later Proto-Slavs originated from it.

Even you admitted that Wielbark culture was multi-ethnic and Goths were only one part of it.

So basically you agree with prof. Kostrzewski. Preliminary Y-DNA and autosomal results of Wielbark samples also seem to support the hypothesis about the multi-ethnic character of that culture.

At least one of Wielbark individuals from Kowalewko is very Eastern shifted autosomally.

and ancient DNA (the one we have from 2nd-5th century Poland, for example)

Wrong. DNA from Wielbark culture shows that it was not a homogeneous population.

Vadim Verenich posted autosomal results of Wielbark individuals from Kowalewko:

Kow45 - autosomally Slavic (closest population: "Ukrainian West"):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post253369

Kow55 - autosomally Slavic-Germanic mix (closest pop.: "East German"):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post252860

Kow25 - autosomally Germanic (closest pop.: "Central Dutch"):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post252863