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They might appear similar to someone but genuine resemblance stems from phonology and syntax, not lexicon.Originally Posted by demiirel
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(unrelated to the thread)
Well, my Khorvat friend, it seems that we Mongols experienced some defeats in Croatia, according to the Wikipedia article about the Mongol general Kadan. I hope you don't become proud like the Vietnamese who still boast today of defeating us Mongols in the 13th century:
Kadan was the son of the second Great Khan of the Mongols Ogedei and a concubine. He was the grandson of Genghis Khan and the brother of Guyuk Khan...
The Mongol prince was then sent south with one tumen to search for Béla in Croatia. Kadan first sought the Hungarian king at Zagreb, which he sacked, and then pursued him into Dalmatia. While Béla hid at Trogir, Mongols under the leadership of Kadan, in March 1242 at Klis Fortress in Croatia, experienced their first European military failure, while in pursuit for the head of Béla IV of Hungary. Kadan's tired forces were defeated by a Croatian army at Battle of Grobnik field, near Rijeka (Fiume). Kadan had his Hungarian prisoners executed as supplies began to run out. To the king's surprise, Kadan headed south past Trogir toward Dubrovnik (Ragusa). While he was nearing Scutari, Kadan heard of the death of his father, Ogedei Khan. Kadan's raids through Bulgaria on his retreat from Central Europe induced the young Kaliman I of Bulgaria to pay tribute and accept Batu Khan as his liege.
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And? What is your conclusion then? I´m sure we´re all just dying to hear it.
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Yes, phonology especially is very important. Research must continue.
Frederik Kortlandt thinks:
From Wikipedia:We may conclude that Proto-Indo-Uralic and Proto-Altaic may have been contemporaries (6000-5500), that Proto-Uralic and Proto-Uralo-Yukagir may have been the same thing and contemporaneous with Proto-Indo-Hittite (4500-4000), and that Proto-Finno-Ugric and nuclear Proto-Indo-European may again have been contemporary languages (3500-3000). This puts the dissolution of the Uralo-Siberian language family in the 7th millennium. It now becomes attractive to identify the latter with the abrupt climate change of 8200 BP or 6200 BC, when severe cold struck the northern hemisphere for more than a century. The catastrophic nature of this disastrous event agrees
well with the sudden dispersal and large-scale lexical replacement which are characteristic of the Uralo-Siberian languages.
Frederik Herman Henri (Frits) Kortlandt (June 19, 1946, Utrecht, The Netherlands) is a professor of descriptive and comparative linguistics at Leiden University. He is an expert on Baltic and Slavic languages, the Indo-European languages in general, and Proto-Indo-European, though he has also published studies of languages in many other language families. He has also studied ways to associate language families into super-groups such as Indo-Uralic.
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His very conservative conclusion:
Thus, I find evidence for 20 Indo-Uralic grammatical elements in Altaic: first person G1 *m, second person G4 *t, demonstratives G8 *i/e, G11 *t, G12 *s, plural G15 *t, accusative G24 *m, genitive G25 *n, dative G26 *ka, locatives G29 *ru, G30 *n, G31 *i, ablative G33 *t, nominalizers G38 *i and G39 *m, participles G43 *t and G45 *l, conative G53 *sk, reflexive G54 *u/w, and interrogative G60 *k. I conclude that the reality of an Eurasiatic language family is very probable. The historical relationship between the Altaic and Uralo-Siberian language families remains to be specified. We must reckon with the possibility that these are the two main branches of the Eurasiatic macro-family. Further research should therefore aim at separate reconstructions of Proto-Altaic and Proto-Uralo-Siberian before other possible inner and outer connections are taken into consideration.
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What's interesting is that these are the first 20 words. The words that come early in the Swadesh lists are those considered "fundamentally important" to the given language. So...And? What is your conclusion then? I´m sure we´re all just dying to hear it.
My conclusion is...
that we
our languages
could
be related.
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Of course they could be related, but unfortunately there is little, if anything, that could be reconstructed of some theoretical progenitor language because of the noise. All human languages are ultimately related.
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All languages are ultimately related... Just because you might find far-fetched connections (although I doubt the ones you presented are such) doesn´t mean much of anything in the scheme of things. You have to present more concrete "evidence" to back up your claims of relative closeness between said languages. And no, a bunch of diminutive cherry-picked words (that don´t even resemble each other that much btw) from various different languages will not suffice.
edit: wow, Monolith, I just noticed I unknowingly wrote almost exactly the same sentence as you did at the end of your post. Great minds think alike.
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Wasn't that the name of one of the Bulgar leaders?
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More from the Swadesh list. The Mongolian equivalents were chosen very strictly. If there are no comments in brackets, then it means the meaning is identical.
Other: Hungarian ‘más’, Mongolian ‘bas, bus’
One: Hungarian ‘egy’, Mongolian ‘neg’
Two: Estonian ‘kaks’, Mongolian ‘kaks’ (half, divided in two)
Three: Hungarian ‘három’, North Mansi ‘hurem’, Mongolian ‘hurav’
Four: Erzya ‘nile’, Mongolian ‘nil, nilde’ (every place, on all four sides, to all four directions)
Small: Karelian ‘väčykkäine’, Erzya ‘vishkine’, Mongolian ‘jijikken’
Woman: Moksha ‘ava’, Mongolian ‘avagai’ (married woman)
Man (human being): North Mansi ‘hum’, Mongolian ‘humun, hun’
Husband: Karelian ‘nukko’, Mongolian ‘nukur’
Mother: Hungarian ‘anya’, Estonian ‘ema’, Mongolian ‘anya’ (elder female in the family) and ‘emee’ (grandmother)
Father: Hungarian ‘apa’, Finnish ‘isä, Mongolian ‘aba, abu, av’ (father) and ‘eseg’ (father)
Dog: Hungarian ‘kutya’, Mongolian ‘kutsa’ (dog bark)
Worm: Estonian ‘uss’, Mongolian ‘ut’
Tree: North Sami ‘muorra’, Mongolian ‘mod’
Forest: Estonian ‘mets’, Mongolian ‘mod
Stick: Karelian ‘savakko’, Mongolian ‘savaa’
Fruit: Hungarian ‘gyümölcs’, Komi ‘imozh’, Mongolian ‘jims, jimes’
Bark: Estonian ‘koor’, Mongolian ‘kuuldas, koltos’
Flower: Erzya ‘tsetsya’, Mongolian ‘tsetseg’
Grass: Hungarian ‘fű’, Mongolian ‘efü, efüs’
Skin: Hungarian ‘bőr’, Mongolian ‘bürhüül’
Meat: Hungarian ‘hús’, Mongolian ‘hüns’
Fat: North Sami ‘buoidi’, Mongolian ‘büdüün’
Horn: Estonian ‘sarv’, Mongolian ‘sar, sartan, serten’
Hair: Finnish ‘hius’, Mongolian ‘us’
Eye: Finnish ‘silmä’, Mongolia ‘milme, melmei’
Tongue: Estonian ‘keel’, Erzya ‘kel’, Mongolian ‘kel’
Fingernail: Finnish ‘kynsi’, Estonian ‘küüs’, Mongolian ‘kums’
Feet and leg: North Sami ‘juolgi’, Komi ‘kok’, Mongolian ‘köl’ (like Uralic, used for both feet and leg)
Neck: Finnish ‘kaula’, Mongolian ‘kaula’ (throat)
Breast: Hungarian ‘kebel’, Mongolian ‘kebel’ (bosom)
Heart: Moksha ‘sedi’, Mongolian ‘sed, setgel, zurk setgel’
To drink: Erzya ‘simems’, Mongolian ‘simek’
To eat: Hungarian ‘eszik’, Mongolian ‘idek’
To spit: Estonian ‘sülgama’, Mongolian ‘süls’ (spit, saliva)
To vomit: Finnish ‘oksentaa’, Mongolian ‘ogik’
To blow: Finnish ‘puhaltaa’, Mongolian ‘sugeldek’
To know: Finnish ‘tietää’, Erzya ‘sodams’, Mongolian ‘sidak’
To kill: North Mansi ‘al-’, Mongolian ‘alak’
To fight: Hungarian ‘harcol’, Erzya ‘tyurems’, Mongolian ‘karshilak’ and ‘turemgiilek’
To push: Erzya ‘tulkadems’, Mongolian ‘tulkek’
To freeze: Estonian ‘külmuma’, Mongolian ‘kulduk’
Sea: Hungarian ‘tenger’, Mongolian ‘tengis’
Sand: Finnish ‘suurimo’, Karelian ‘chuuru’, Mongolian ‘shoroo’
Fire: Finnish ‘tuli’, Mongolian ‘tulek’ (to burn)
Yellow: Hungarian ‘sárga’, Mongolian ‘sarga’
Cold: Estonian ‘külm’, Mongolian ‘kulduu, kuiten’
Right: Estonian ‘parem’, Mongolian ‘barun’
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