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Thread: Proto-Celtic/Celtic ethnogenesis?

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    Default Proto-Celtic/Celtic ethnogenesis?

    I have somewhat of an obsession with the Celts. Recently, because of the works of some geneticists, some have postulated that the Celtic ethnogenesis happened in Spain. Others keep with the traditional idea that the ethnogenesis happened in Central Europe, specifically Southern German/Austria.

    Here are outlines of the two basic theories, keep in mind I'm no expert:

    1) Central Europe ethnogenesis
    In this theory, the Celts are descendants of the Kurgan culture from Southern Russia. They slowly invaded Europe, conquering and then mingling with Bell Beaker peoples, and adapting to their new surroundings. This settlement and interaction resulted in the development of the culture associated with Hallstatt - "Celtic culture". The new ethnic Celts then pushed into France, Spain, and eventually Britain and Ireland.

    From a racial viewpoint, Coon argued that the warrior types found at Hallstatt and La Tene tended to correspond Corded Ware and Kurgan types(Nordid, basically). These Nordids then mixed a little with the Bell Beakers(Dinarids), before invading France and then the Isles. Coon actually thought the "Celtic type" made a majority in Britain and were stereotypically associated with the English.

    However, as I'll explain, some genetic research seems to contradict this...


    2) Spanish ethnogenesis
    In this theory, the Megalithic people who settled Spain and then Britain and Ireland spoke Celtic languages. Rather than spread through military conquests from Southern Russia - "Kurgan Hypothesis" - this different idea of the spread of Indo-European languages sees them resulting from Neolithic farming settlement of the Mediterranean, associated with the Megalith builders. Essentially, one branch of the Indo-European languages originated in Turkey, spread from their to Greek, from thence to Italy, and then to Spain, the Isles, and then to France. I guess in this theory, Celtic languages develop out of Latin rather than the other way around - and the people who brought farming to Britain and Ireland already spoke Celtic.

    The main support for this theory is genetic information. Genetically, it seems very hard to prove a Celtic invasion of the British Isles during the Iron Age. Rather, most Britains and Irish genetically seem related most to Neolithic Megalith builders - as does Northern Spain and Northwest France - all areas where Celtic languages were spoken.

    There's also some support from Celtic mythology - the Irish, for example, saw themselves as being descended from settlers from Iberia, and these legends don't speak of an invasion or conquering another peoples - as would have happened in the Kurgan hypothesis. There's also little archaeological evidence in either Britain or Ireland for any military invasion during the Iron Age - the implication being that the Celtic-speaking settlements of the Isles happened in a period where they held little indigenous population, and thus did not require a "conquest" as the Kurgan hypothesis holds.

    There is definite evidence of a warlike Iron Age culture in Central FRance and Central Germany, however. In the Spanish hypothesis, thus, Celtic invasions of central Europe would have begun from either the British Isles or Spain, and would have been violent in nature due to the established agriculture/large populations in those areas when the Megalith builders came around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curtis24 View Post
    However, as I'll explain, some genetic research seems to contradict this...
    Hmmm...
    Genetic research cannot contradict with linguistic research, because these are independent levels. There are genes from different directions, even from Spain, but the Celtic language was still born in Central Europe. We have Italo-Celtic common features, we have contacts between Celtic and Germanic etc.

    In Spain there were other languages: Basque, Iberian, Tartessian. There are no traces of old contacts with them and Celtic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Hmmm...
    Genetic research cannot contradict with linguistic research, because these are independent levels. There are genes from different directions, even from Spain, but the Celtic language was still born in Central Europe. We have Italo-Celtic common features, we have contacts between Celtic and Germanic etc.

    In Spain there were other languages: Basque, Iberian, Tartessian. There are no traces of old contacts with them and Celtic.
    "According to the theory of John T. Koch and others, the Tartessian language may have been the earliest directly attested Celtic language with the Tartessian written script used in the inscriptions based on a version of a Phoenician script in use around 825 BC"




    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tartess...sian_as_Celtic

    Espada tengo. Lo demás, Dios lo remedie.

    In the west almost all Spain had been subjugated, except that part which adjoins the cliffs where the Pyrenees end and is washed by the nearer waters of the ocean. Here two powerful nations, the Cantabrians and the Asturians, lived in freedom from the rule of Rome.")
    — Lucius Anneus Florus , Epitome de T. Livio Bellorum omnium annorum DCC Libri duo Bellum Cantabricum et Asturicum


    Ethnicity of the Celts/Iberian. Tribes: Avariginos, Blendi, Concanos, Coniscos, Orgenomescos, Plentusios, Tamáricos and Vadinienses.--->http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...40#post3047240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Hmmm...
    Genetic research cannot contradict with linguistic research, because these are independent levels. There are genes from different directions, even from Spain, but the Celtic language was still born in Central Europe. We have Italo-Celtic common features, we have contacts between Celtic and Germanic etc.

    In Spain there were other languages: Basque, Iberian, Tartessian. There are no traces of old contacts with them and Celtic.
    Celts urheimat



    Hallstatt (yellow) vs La Téne (green)


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    The first thing we must ask is whether the genetic origin of the Celts is the same as the origin of language later.

    About the Celts in Spain, I can tell you about the origin of my people, one of many Celts of Iberia.

    The Cantabri (Greek: Kantabroi) were a pre-Roman Celtic people which lived in the northern Atlantic coastal region of ancient Hispania, from the 4th to late 1st centuries BC.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabri

    Espada tengo. Lo demás, Dios lo remedie.

    In the west almost all Spain had been subjugated, except that part which adjoins the cliffs where the Pyrenees end and is washed by the nearer waters of the ocean. Here two powerful nations, the Cantabrians and the Asturians, lived in freedom from the rule of Rome.")
    — Lucius Anneus Florus , Epitome de T. Livio Bellorum omnium annorum DCC Libri duo Bellum Cantabricum et Asturicum


    Ethnicity of the Celts/Iberian. Tribes: Avariginos, Blendi, Concanos, Coniscos, Orgenomescos, Plentusios, Tamáricos and Vadinienses.--->http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...40#post3047240

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    Are the two theories that incompatible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    In Spain there were other languages: Basque, Iberian, Tartessian. There are no traces of old contacts with them and Celtic.
    Er... what???
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    As a lover of my country and knower of its traditions and people, when I read things about these archetypes of celtic culture I can only conclude 2 things:

    1.- Spain is probably one of the most celtic nations in Europe (with France, Ireland, Scotland and Portugal).

    or

    2.- Whatever the ancient roots of spaniard cultures (megalithism western) are the traits of these, many of the main elements of these have been STOLEN by others (as usual) to incorporate to them and their idea of Celtism.


    When I imagine a Celt, a pure celt, I don't see a redhaired viking, as many efforts and propaganda by these stealers of cultures and identities insist in doing...

    I see a Spaniard or any other ancient Atlantic european. I just know the matter and my lands and our cultural substratum.
    Spoiler!




    I really don't like when foreigner people try to deny or steal our identity and the real traditions of our old men and women... and what it the funny thing: many of these attackers don't even have a real idea about what is the real Spain, only fables for dumbs. Antipreservationists 100%.

    Of course, modern science as genetic and ancient anthropology, as oral traditions, conclude in the same truth, no matter how much efforts do the propagandists and stealers.

    ...

    Curtis, your ideas of Celts, if you are a student and lover of them, would link with the paradigm of Milesians.

    These picture up there are the modern Milesians. If you look for the celtic world, travel in the core of old and Real Spain (I'm talking about pueblos and villages with more thousands of years of history).

    It's a must if you like these matters.
    Antes de subir al cadalso, Juan de Padilla se dirigió a su camarada Juan Bravo con unas célebres palabras: "Seńor Bravo: ayer era día de pelear como caballero...hoy es día de morir como cristiano". Ante esto, Juan Bravo pidió ser ejecutado antes que Padilla, "…para no ver la muerte de tan buen caballero". Horas más tarde, también fue ejecutado y decapitado el salmantino Francisco Maldonado.


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    You forgot Cymru!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Don View Post
    1.- Spain is probably one of the most celtic nations in Europe (with France, Ireland, Scotland and Portugal).
    If Spain is one of the most Celtic, where are its Celtic languages?

    I hate to sound biased, but Wales is probably the most Celtic place on earth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Treffie View Post
    If Spain is one of the most Celtic, where are its Celtic languages?

    I hate to sound biased, but Wales is probably the most Celtic place on earth.
    Our celtics lenguages died here, in this moment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabrian_Wars

    But the language does not mean all that matters, people are the same.

    Espada tengo. Lo demás, Dios lo remedie.

    In the west almost all Spain had been subjugated, except that part which adjoins the cliffs where the Pyrenees end and is washed by the nearer waters of the ocean. Here two powerful nations, the Cantabrians and the Asturians, lived in freedom from the rule of Rome.")
    — Lucius Anneus Florus , Epitome de T. Livio Bellorum omnium annorum DCC Libri duo Bellum Cantabricum et Asturicum


    Ethnicity of the Celts/Iberian. Tribes: Avariginos, Blendi, Concanos, Coniscos, Orgenomescos, Plentusios, Tamáricos and Vadinienses.--->http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...40#post3047240

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