Serbians are mostly Whiter than Iberians, Western Asians and North Caucasians.

[Septentrion]

That's exactly what his claim is. He claims Portugal is like the Lebannon in pigmentation and not like other southern euros, incluiding its genetically related neighbour. Studies that don't go along with this theory, he claims were badly measured due to OWD like Tamagnini's "A Côr do Cabêlo e dos Olhos nos Estudantes dos Escolas Primárias Portuguesas" (1909/10-1915).", which i thought was perfectly valid for eye color or apparently my own parliament study.



I measured 13.6% pure light eyes that particular time, not 7.13%.

Portugal is a European country. It is obviously lighter-eyed than Lebanon. I would laugh aloud at one that says otherwise!

[interes]

Portugal is a European country. It is obviously lighter-eyed than Lebanon. I would laugh aloud at one that says otherwise!

portugal people are lighter tha n southern caucasians they look like more circassians

[Melkiirs]

If there is one thing that is very overestimated in these " extremely accurate studies" is that light eyed percentage on the southern balkans and on the mediterranean. At least the vast majority of them seems to have brown-like eyes.

"Brown-like eyes" is different than pure brown. If dark-mixed eyes like the below are included than the vast majority (significantly higher than the ~65% for pure brown) of Portuguese are dark-eyed. Dark hazel is a frequent eye color in Southern Europeans in general. Data shows that pure-brown combined with dark-mixed clearly dominate among Southern Europeans. What source are you specially referring to when you mention overestimation?



This Spanish study found only 28.5% pure brown in Spain but involved detailed iris photographs so not fully comparable to traditional studies in which the iris was not examined as closely. Dark hazel likely constituted a large share of the 55.2% hazel-green:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19551689/

[Melkiirs]

Portugal is a European country. It is obviously lighter-eyed than Lebanon. I would laugh aloud at one that says otherwise!

I did my own parliament study and Tamagnini's dark category obviously included darker mixed eyes since I only found ~65% pure brown which is nowhere near 78%. So I stand corrected, typical Levantines or even Turks are significantly more pure brown eyed than Portuguese. There are a few non-European groups not more pure-brown eyed than Portuguese like Samaritans or Kāfiristān Nuristanis but they represent extremes due to genetic isolation. Sardinians may be another situation with ~76% pure-brown Martin-Schultz #9-16 based on the 1983 G.G. Cosseddu study. Although they are a genetic outlier and not typical Southern Europeans, they do approach a variety of MENAs in the frequency of pure brown eyes.

[Septentrion]

I did my own parliament study and Tamagnini's dark category obviously included darker mixed eyes since I only found ~65% pure brown which is nowhere near 78%. So I stand corrected, typical Levantines or even Turks are significantly more pure brown eyed than Portuguese. There are a few non-European groups not more pure-brown eyed than Portuguese like Samaritans or Kāfiristān Nuristanis but they represent extremes due to genetic isolation. Sardinians may be another situation with ~76% pure-brown Martin-Schultz #9-16 based on the 1983 G.G. Cosseddu study. Although they are a genetic outlier and not typical Southern Europeans, they do approach a variety of MENAs in the frequency of pure brown eyes.

Have you been to those lands? Samaritans (I’ve been to Israel about twenty years ago) are just Levantines, they look darker than the Portuguese. Nothing light about them. Nuristanis are Afghans, so I wouldn’t even bother.

[Damião de Góis]

The 13.6% likely includes people like Vera Braz, Hugo Martins de Carvalho, or Paulo Ramalho who have essentially light but somewhat greenish or mixed eyes. Damião de Góis findings and my own for pure light depart over only a few such individuals with light mixed eyes. Blue and light greyish with no apparent mixture would be slightly less.

Vera Braz for example, do you consider this pure light like Damião de Góis does or light mixed like I do?:

Ah, so this is why you did your own portuguese parliament study. You didn't trust my 13,6% number for blue/grey eyes, and like you said on another thread, southern europeans have OWD and cannot be trusted.

Paulo Ramalho wasn't there when i measured and Hugo Martins de Carvalho has green eyes (particularly on his parliament picture) so i didn't consider him to have blue eyes. As for Vera Braz i judged her on her parliament picture which is no longer there. Her current one is this one:



You on the other hand considered this women to have pure blue eyes and only changed you mind after i said i had put her in my Mixed category:




No to mention counting the wrong person or leaving people out, that i detected just by looking superficially at your study, and not by conducting a thorough search on every one looking for mistakes.

Looking back now, these were probably done on purpose do reach a certain number.

Ridiculous.

[Melkiirs]

Have you been to those lands? Samaritans (I’ve been to Israel about twenty years ago) are just Levantines, they look darker than the Portuguese. Nothing light about them. Nuristanis are Afghans, so I wouldn’t even bother.

No need to visit Israel or Afghanistan to know that those groups are more light featured than typical for broader regions as there are studies. I doubt you checked the eyes of many subjects up close.

Samaritans are on the level of darker Southern Europeans in eye color, not Palestinians or other Arabs. Here is data from Corrado Gini regarding 160 Samaritans representing 77% of the total population in 1933:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29786197

Less than 70% is Martin #1-6 (Genna who collaborated with Gini found specifically 67.4% with an even larger sample) and my ~65% pure brown for Portuguese might be closer to Martin #1-5 than #1-6 based on some individual scales. Portuguese and Samaritans likely have a similar frequency of pure brown eyes. This does not apply to normal Levantines who have never faced extreme bottlenecking.

As for Kāfiristān Nuristanis based on the Martin scale 66% are pure brown #1-6 which is similar to both Portuguese and Samaritans. Isolation could account for the higher than expected frequency.

For the eye color investigation of 275 subjects in the Albert Herrlich study these result were obtained:
"Light (1a - 6): 7.5 % Medium (7-11): 34.2 % Dark (12-16): 58.3%"
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...HAQ6AF6BAgEEAI

Converting from Martin-Schultz to Martin scale it was suggested that 5% of the population have approximately pure light eyes (~#12-16), 29% mixed eyes (~#7-11), and 66% pure dark/brown eyes (~#1-6) ("The conversion of his Schultz chart leads approximately to the ( light - 5 % , medium - 29 % , dark - 66 %"):
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...wYQ6AF6BAgDEAI

So yes the lightest eyed non-European West-Eurasians definitely overlap with Southern Europeans with pure brown eyes.

[Token]

No need to visit Israel or Afghanistan to know that those groups are more light featured than typical for broader regions as there are studies. I doubt you checked the eyes of many subjects up close.

Samaritans are on the level of darker Southern Europeans in eye color, not Palestinians or other Arabs. Here is data from Corrado Gini regarding 160 Samaritans representing 77% of the total population in 1933:
[img]https://i.ibb.co/LpDB1vK/Samaritan-I.png[/img
https://www.jstor.org/stable/29786197

Less than 70% is Martin #1-6 (Genna who collaborated with Gini found specifically 67.4% with an even larger sample) and my ~65% pure brown for Portuguese might be closer to Martin #1-5 than #1-6 based on some individual scales. Portuguese and Samaritans likely have a similar frequency of pure brown eyes. This does not apply to normal Levantines who have never faced extreme bottlenecking.

As for Kāfiristān Nuristanis based on the Martin scale 66% are pure brown #1-6 which is similar to both Portuguese and Samaritans. Isolation could account for the higher than expected frequency.

For the eye color investigation of 275 subjects in the Albert Herrlich study these result were obtained:
"Light (1a - 6): 7.5 % Medium (7-11): 34.2 % Dark (12-16): 58.3%"
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...HAQ6AF6BAgEEAI

Converting from Martin-Schultz to Martin scale it was suggested that 5% of the population have approximately pure light eyes (~#12-16), 29% mixed eyes (~#7-11), and 66% pure dark/brown eyes (~#1-6) ("The conversion of his Schultz chart leads approximately to the ( light - 5 % , medium - 29 % , dark - 66 %"):
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...wYQ6AF6BAgDEAI

So yes the lightest eyed non-European West-Eurasians definitely overlap with Southern Europeans with pure brown eyes.

Funny how you don't mention some tribes of the Rif such as the Beni Amart, where less than 20% are pure dark-eyed. Perhaps because you fear the reaction of our fellow southern European members?

[Melkiirs]

Ah, so this is why you did your own portuguese parliament study. You didn't trust my 13,6% number for blue/grey eyes, and like you said on another thread, southern europeans have OWD and cannot be trusted.

Paulo Ramalho wasn't there when i measured and Hugo Martins de Carvalho has green eyes (particularly on his parliament picture) so i didn't consider him to have blue eyes. As for Vera Braz i judged her on her parliament picture which is no longer there. Her current one is this one:



You on the other hand considered this women to have pure blue eyes and only changed you mind after i said i had put her in my Mixed category:




No to mention counting the wrong person or leaving people out, that i detected just by looking superficially at your study, and not by conducting a thorough search on every one looking for mistakes.

Looking back now, these were probably done on purpose do reach a certain number.

Ridiculous.

5-6%+ (over a dozen deputies) is obviously a way too high margin of error for distinguishing pure light and mixed eyes. So there are two factors that can explain the deviation between our figures for pure light eyes: either I have different standards or there was deliberate manipulation. I doubt it is the latter for a certain reason.

Let's go through each of the deputies I had designated as pure light:

Cases I marked as Pure light:
Alexandre Quintanilha: Blue (possibly greenish)

Spoiler!

Anabela Real: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

António Sales: Greyish

Spoiler!

César Vasconcelos: Blue/Green (light-mixed)

Spoiler!

Cláudia André: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

Diogo Pacheco de Amorim: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

Dora Brandão: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

Francisco Pereira de Oliveira: Blue-Green (light-mixed)

Spoiler!

Hugo Carvalho: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

João Prata: Blue

Spoiler!

Lina Lopes: Blue

Spoiler!

Mara Lagriminha Coelho: Hazel-Blue (light-mixed)

Spoiler!

Maria da Luz Rosinha: Hazel-Blue (light mixed)

Spoiler!

Marta Temido: Light Greenish Hazel (light-mixed)

Spoiler!

Miguel Iglésias: Blue/Grey

Spoiler!

Palmira Maciel: Blue

Spoiler!

Rita Borges Madeira: Blue

Spoiler!

Susana Barroso: Blue

Spoiler!

At least five of the cases pure light eyes I initially recorded were actually light mixed. So I overestimated pure light eyes by not checking all photos, rather than underestimated. An overestimation would naturally be more expected in this context because from an even moderate distance light mixed eyes can be mistaken for pure light. Thus it is more likely a matter of legitimate differences in standards than deliberate manipulation to achieve a very similar figure to Tamagnini for pure light eyes.

A minimum ~5% of deputies are pure light eyed regardless of standards. This is expected because Poulianos found near 5% Bunak #9-12 (equivalent to Martin #12-16) for Greeks. Portuguese may be lighter eyed but not by a huge margin. They are towards the darker end of Southern Europeans, but still lighter than Sardinians among whom less than 3% are pure light eyed (only 2.73% Martin-Schlutz #1-4 by the 1983 G.G. Cosseddu study).

[Septentrion]

No need to visit Israel or Afghanistan to know that those groups are more light featured than typical for broader regions as there are studies. I doubt you checked the eyes of many subjects up close.

Samaritans are on the level of darker Southern Europeans in eye color, not Palestinians or other Arabs. Here is data from Corrado Gini regarding 160 Samaritans representing 77% of the total population in 1933:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/29786197

Less than 70% is Martin #1-6 (Genna who collaborated with Gini found specifically 67.4% with an even larger sample) and my ~65% pure brown for Portuguese might be closer to Martin #1-5 than #1-6 based on some individual scales. Portuguese and Samaritans likely have a similar frequency of pure brown eyes. This does not apply to normal Levantines who have never faced extreme bottlenecking.

As for Kāfiristān Nuristanis based on the Martin scale 66% are pure brown #1-6 which is similar to both Portuguese and Samaritans. Isolation could account for the higher than expected frequency.

For the eye color investigation of 275 subjects in the Albert Herrlich study these result were obtained:
"Light (1a - 6): 7.5 % Medium (7-11): 34.2 % Dark (12-16): 58.3%"
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...HAQ6AF6BAgEEAI

Converting from Martin-Schultz to Martin scale it was suggested that 5% of the population have approximately pure light eyes (~#12-16), 29% mixed eyes (~#7-11), and 66% pure dark/brown eyes (~#1-6) ("The conversion of his Schultz chart leads approximately to the ( light - 5 % , medium - 29 % , dark - 66 %"):
https://books.google.com/books?id=8P...wYQ6AF6BAgDEAI

So yes the lightest eyed non-European West-Eurasians definitely overlap with Southern Europeans with pure brown eyes.

Are you serious right now? You are comparing a mere 160 persons of Levantine descent with a whole nation of Europe, which is Portugal! Tamagnini studies are done all over Portugal, it is on a national level, so don't compare that with a small bunch of Levantines who are insignificant. I'm not saying that there aren't light-eyed people in those Arab populations. However, they are not on a European level. We have to learn to accept that they are not Europeans, they're Western Asiatics. There is nothing wrong with that. I saw and still see the difference between these people and us (Europeans).