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Thread: The sound of Romance

  1. #171
    Spectateur Tel Errant's Avatar
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    Default Et pendant ce temps-là en Provence...

    Malaterra, a film in Provençal:
    [YOUTUBE]OdroBng6Vvc[/YOUTUBE]

    Notice the R that aren't rolled in the south-east in comparison with the south-west (and some oil dialects too for that matter).
    I guess that for other romance speakers Provençal must sound quite French influenced.


    Vaqui, a program in Provençal aired on France3 every saturday, the presentater is nice but it doesn't help the low audience... :
    [YOUTUBE]XHsafLP7eRU[/YOUTUBE]

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    Malaterra, a film in Provençal:
    [YOUTUBE]OdroBng6Vvc[/YOUTUBE]

    Notice the R that aren't rolled in the south-east in comparison with the south-west (and some oil dialects too for that matter).
    I guess that for other romance speakers Provençal must sound quite French influenced.


    Vaqui, a program in Provençal aired on France3 every saturday, the presentater is nice but it doesn't help the low audience... :
    [YOUTUBE]XHsafLP7eRU[/YOUTUBE]

    Actually, what occitane dialect is the first video? Sounds more "arpitanized" than regular piedmonteis occitane ("Valadoise") or mentonasc, monegasque or nissàrd..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perduellio View Post
    Actually, what occitane dialect is the first video? Sounds more "arpitanized" than regular piedmonteis occitane ("Valadoise") or mentonasc, monegasque or nissàrd..
    That's Provençal in ca/ga, Southern Occitan. Actually Piemonteis Occitane is a Vivaro-Alpine dialect of Northern Occitan and therefore closer to Arpitan than the Provençal of the video is. Your impression is due to the fact that Provence, as a French region, has had its prononciation affected by French, just like Catalan had it by Spanish in Spain and Piemontese Occitan by Piemontese and Italian in Piemont. Centuries of bi/trilinguism have worked at uniformising the prononciations and accents in our countries so that the different dialects of the occitano-romance familly, even if very close on paper when you read them, have ended sounding more like the dominant language of the country they're part of than what the medieval koiné they come from would have evolved into had it become the language of an independant country.
    It shows how important accents and prononciations are and how they affect our perceptions of languages.

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    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Exactly. The genuine intonation of a language can get lost when in contact with a major one, even if the language is preserved. I've told that to people who keep telling me that Catalan is not endangered at all. It is true that Catalan is special among all minorized languages in that it is not minoritarian and is probably the only one that keeps clearly increasing its number of non-native speakers, but if genuine intonation and, to some extent, syntax, keep getting gradually lost, it'd be a distorted one and so it is partially endangered too. Whether some like it or not, languages need a full country to develop fully.

    That film of Malaterra, yes, I found it quite French-sounding, even when some of the sentences are almost identical to Catalan, like T'agrada aquell home? When I hear "French" Catalans, they also tend to have a very French intonation, as well as the ü and French R sound.

    Here in Catalonia you notice a serious difference these days between the accent of second speakers and the accent of native ones, but even between the latter, a difference between those from inland rural villages and those from urban towns.

    This is from the film Black bread. Does it sound Spanish-influenced to you? If so, how much?

    [YOUTUBE]ivBLla4pw8Q[/YOUTUBE]
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    ^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the "th sound" like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where (Spain) I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).
    On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the closeness to the French prononciation that makes it very clear to the ears), Malaterra was quite easy to understand for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    if genuine intonation and, to some extent, syntax, keep getting gradually lost, it'd be a distorted one and so it is partially endangered too. Whether some like it or not, languages need a full country to develop fully.
    I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? ), but also because it's much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.
    I understand that in Catalonia the situation is different because you're numerous and Castillan isn't 'part of the familly' so to say, but still.
    Last edited by Tel Errant; 05-26-2012 at 05:26 PM. Reason: Parce que

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    ^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the S like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).
    On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the relative closeness to French), Malaterra was very understandable for me.


    I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? ), but also because it's too much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.
    I understand that in Catalonia the situation is different because you're numerous and Castillan isn't 'part of the familly' so to say, but still.
    Occitane as daily spoken language survives only in Val D'Aran and in the Cuneoise valleys (Piemont).
    In southern France, except for some zones of Languedoc and near Aix-En-Provence and Avignon, is nearly extinct, unfortunately.

  7. #177
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    Cuneoise (Valadas) occitane

    [YOUTUBE]X56RmIFgxfc[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]htJpFS6133w[/YOUTUBE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Perduellio View Post
    Occitane as daily spoken language survives only in Val D'Aran and in the Cuneoise valleys (Piemont).
    In southern France, except for some zones of Languedoc and near Aix-En-Provence and Avignon, is nearly extinct, unfortunately.
    Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.
    As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread. And the same goes for Lou dalfin around your part of the Alps.

    Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style), and the autochtonous people who could identify with them have been replaced too. I'm not Provençal, you're not Piemontese (if i'm not mistaken), enough said.
    It's like mythologies and religions, I find them fascinating, Christian exegese is very interesting, but like most of the French I stopped believing in God when I was 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.
    As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread. And the same goes for Lou dalfin around your part of the Alps.

    Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style), and the autochtonous people who could identify with them have been replaced too. I'm not Provençal, you're not Piemontese (if i'm not mistaken), enough said.
    It's like mythologies and religions, I find them fascinating, Christian exegese is very interesting, but like most of the French I stopped believing in God when I was 13.
    Not at all: my ancestors were from Valle Seriana (Eastern Lombardy), Venice (Veneto), Velletri (Near Rome) and Saorge (Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur)

    Anyway you're right, 100% right. I only pointed the fact that in Cuneo valleys, valadas occitane is still alive.

    For Provence, after the fact that there was a heavy francizations, there is also to assume that the heavy maghrebi immigration have diluited the last pure occitane expressions

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    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    ^I can only get a few words here and there, the R seem strongly rolled, they don't prononce the "th sound" like in Castillan, but the 'music' of the language is still very Ibero-Romance to me, that's where (Spain) I would place them without a doubt if asked, I find the language dry, the rythm saccadé (maybe because of the final -c and -t).
    Aha, I get what you mean. Yet an observation: things not sounding French does not mean they are necessarily Iberian. Rolling r's and final -c / -t are the way they must be (and should be in non-Frenchified Occitan too). Even Old French had them.

    You're right, no th sound, but that's because the th sound, as well as the jota sound, are almost exclusive to Spanish, alien to the rest of Romance languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    On the other hand, despite having no knowledge of Provençal, but getting used to what it sounds like (and because of the closeness to the French prononciation that makes it very clear to the ears), Malaterra was quite easy to understand for me.
    Only because of intonation?

    This is Northern Catalan ("French" Catalan). It is almost identical to Standard Catalan, I understand 100% of it, only that the intonation sounds French to me. Similar to the French people living in Catalonia when they speak Catalan. Do you understand anything, or notice it closer at all because of the French intonation?

    [YOUTUBE]IlIPdm55XGo[/YOUTUBE]

    I agree with the diagnostic, but not with the remedy. As I see it, Occitan is dead, not only because of the very low number of speakers (30 millions? ), but also because it's much altered by French. And after all, it's just Southern Gallo-Romance dialects replaced by a Northern Gallo-Romance one, so it's no big deal for me anyway.
    Here we disagree then. I find it actually quite sad that France doesn't care about the preservation of the first Romance language to write love poetry, if we forget about Mozarabic. And I find it a big deal that different subfamilies are replaced, in one sense or another. I wouldn't like it either if it had been the other way round and it was French which was endangered. I'm for the preservation of European diversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    Seriously Perduellio, if you think that Provençal is spoken in Avignon and Aix then you're in for a big surprise if you ever visit the places. You can still hear some expressions from old peoples that also have kept the accent (that frenchified accent like the one in the Malaterra video), but for the rest it's dead and buried. It's still studied in uni but it's of no practical use, I sometimes listen to Vaqui because I find linguistic interesting but I must be one of the very few.
    I'd say the social situation of Occitan is quite analogous to that of Aragonese, with the exception that, at least, Occitan has had some excellent literature throughout the centuries, while Aragonese literature is very little known.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    As for the Aran valley, I've already stated how it sounds like to me in the other thread.
    I guess Aran Gascon sounds very "Iberian" to the French, but well, isn't Gascon, alongside with Catalan, supposed to be the most Iberian of all Occitanic languages?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    Let's face it: linguistic is interesting, but those languages are dead (except maybe Catalan if they obtain their independance or confederalise swiss-style),
    At least there's an independent part of ethnic Catalonia in Andorra, so even if to a minimal extent, Catalan is a state language, unlike Padanian (which could have been official in Monaco or San Marino).

    Although one of these days they're going to substitute Catalan for Portuguese as the official national language.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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