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Thread: The sound of Romance

  1. #181
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    At least there's an independent part of ethnic Catalonia in Andorra, so even if to a minimal extent, Catalan is a state language, unlike Padanian (which could have been official in Monaco or San Marino).
    Yes, but it would have been Ligurian in Monaco and Romagnol in San Marino - two extremely different dialects, muh further apart than - I think - any two dialects of Catalan, or even of Occitanian. Another proof that Padanian is not a language (it could have become one if things went another way in the Middle Ages) but a (sub)family.

  2. #182
    My Countship is not of this world Comte Arnau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Scharrenhans View Post
    Yes, but it would have been Ligurian in Monaco and Romagnol in San Marino - two extremely different dialects, muh further apart than - I think - any two dialects of Catalan, or even of Occitanian.
    Catalan is one of the Romance languages with less dialectalization, despite its vast territory, probably because of an early educated reference for all dialects in the documentation of the medieval Royal Chancellery. Only Algherese could be considered a clearly distinct dialect, for obvious reasons.

    I'd compare the situation of Padanian more with Occitan or Arpitan, for which some linguists claim independence in each dialect while many others recognize them as one single language with a lot of dialectalization due to the lack of a solid historic standard. But even the French government recognizes Occitan as one single language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Scharrenhans View Post
    Another proof that Padanian is not a language (it could have become one if things went another way in the Middle Ages) but a (sub)family.
    I agree that the present state of things offers little chance for a reunification, specially with the so called Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Romansh, Ladin and Friulian) or even with Venetian, but saying that Padanian is not a language may be a bit far-fetched, as many linguists have already justified it.

    (PDF) Ma esiste una lingua padana?

    The Linguistic Unity of the Northern Italy and Rhaetia

    (PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (I)
    (PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (II)


    I can't judge because I don't have enough knowledge about it, although what I've read so far about it makes a lot of sense. Besides, I've seen in the past people attacking the codification processes of languages like Occitan or Aragonese out of mere political reasons, so I'm always suspicious about those critics. One has to bear in mind that minorized languages which haven't had standard references have been more prone to heavy dialectalization, but that doesn't mean that it's too late for a common written standard, as Asturian, Aragonese or Sardinian have shown.
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

  3. #183
    Franc-mâchon Mesrine's Avatar
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    Rhaeto-Romance needs more rep !

    Ladin from South Tyrol

    [YOUTUBE]tuXOSL7fmjA[/YOUTUBE]

  4. #184
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesrine View Post
    Rhaeto-Romance needs more rep !

    Ladin from South Tyrol

    [YOUTUBE]tuXOSL7fmjA[/YOUTUBE]
    I have a hard time understanding it. It sounds very German accented, similar to Rumantsch.

  5. #185
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post

    I'd compare the situation of Padanian more with Occitan or Arpitan, for which some linguists claim independence in each dialect while many others recognize them as one single language with a lot of dialectalization due to the lack of a solid historic standard. But even the French government recognizes Occitan as one single language.

    I agree that the present state of things offers little chance for a reunification, specially with the so called Rhaeto-Romance varieties (Romansh, Ladin and Friulian) or even with Venetian, but saying that Padanian is not a language may be a bit far-fetched, as many linguists have already justified it.

    (PDF) Ma esiste una lingua padana?

    The Linguistic Unity of the Northern Italy and Rhaetia

    (PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (I)
    (PDF) Rebuilding the Rhaeto-Cisalpine written language (II)
    For what I've seen of Occitan dialects, they seem to me, while more differentiated than the remarkably uniform Catalan, still closer to each other than Padanian ones.
    I do concede that the geographically more central variants (like Piedmontese, Lombard, Western Emilian, and more or less everything that's spoken along the banks of the Po) are more similar and could, in principle (not in practice, nowadays) be reunified. But if we take the geographically more extreme variants - Ligurian and Venetian especially, but also Romagnol - they are too eccentric to be traced back to some 'Common Padanian'.
    That's to say nothing of Rhaeto-Romance!

    I like those linguists and their work, but while it's indisputable that Padanian is a diasystem of Romance languages with unifying features that separate it from Italo-Romance, considering it a single language is a bit too optimistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    I can't judge because I don't have enough knowledge about it, although what I've read so far about it makes a lot of sense. Besides, I've seen in the past people attacking the codification processes of languages like Occitan or Aragonese out of mere political reasons, so I'm always suspicious about those critics. One has to bear in mind that minorized languages which haven't had standard references have been more prone to heavy dialectalization, but that doesn't mean that it's too late for a common written standard, as Asturian, Aragonese or Sardinian have shown.
    To be clear, I would be very happy if this were possible - I'm not strictly speaking a Padanian nationalist or separatist, but I do believe that Northern Italy is a distinct entity from the Center-South, and language is one of the proofs of it.
    But I think that too many dialects are structurally so deviant from the proposed written standard that, if it were adopted, their relationship to it would be reminiscent of that of Chinese 'dialects' to Standard Chinese - same written form, mutually uncomprehensible dialects that are actually quite distinct languages.

  6. #186
    Spectateur Tel Errant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    Aha, I get what you mean. Yet an observation: things not sounding French does not mean they are necessarily Iberian.
    I was referring to the melody of the language that's very 'spanish' to me, just like Piemontese or Toscan or Sicilian sound invariably Italian. That's the flow, the tone, the rythm, the intonation... each one of the three zone has its own musicality, but that's basically what we were talking about above with the uniformisation of prononciations/intonations/accents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    Only because of intonation?
    You may think that I'm exaggerating but like I said in that one year old post of mine, despite its closeness to French spoken Catalan is less understandable to me than spoken Italian which belongs to another branch of the romance languages. It must be those final consonants that ruin it for me.
    Provençal on the contrary doesn't lose in understandability when passing from the written to the spoken form, which made Malaterra easy to understand.

    And well, there are peoples in Québec who speak with such a strong accent that you need subtitles to understand what they say, yet they speak French. There surely are similar examples in the Spanish speaking world. Intonations and accents do play a huge role in comprehension.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    This is Northern Catalan ("French" Catalan). It is almost identical to Standard Catalan, I understand 100% of it, only that the intonation sounds French to me. Similar to the French people living in Catalonia when they speak Catalan. Do you understand anything, or notice it closer at all because of the French intonation?

    [YOUTUBE]IlIPdm55XGo[/YOUTUBE]
    It's indeed much easier to understand than the pa negre video. They also speak slower, it helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    Here we disagree then. I find it actually quite sad that France doesn't care about the preservation of the first Romance language to write love poetry, if we forget about Mozarabic. And I find it a big deal that different subfamilies are replaced, in one sense or another. I wouldn't like it either if it had been the other way round and it was French which was endangered. I'm for the preservation of European diversity.
    That's the modern world, those languages just died of their uselessness, c'est la vie, c'est comme ça. As long as there was relatively autonomous counties and duchies they had some legitimity and utility but that time is over now. Sustain them today and you'll feed the separatists, you'll have to give each region special competances in fiscality, education, health, etc, some fanatics will start bombing. I don't want that for my country, Spain is the countermodel in that regard. I'm a centralist, one country, one language, you can learn and speak how many dialects you want, but don't ask for special rights.
    Last edited by Tel Errant; 05-27-2012 at 09:25 PM. Reason: Parce que

  7. #187
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    I was referring to the melody of the language that's very 'spanish' to me, just like Piemontese or Toscan or Sicilian sound invariably Italian.
    I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears? I ask this because, in addition to being structurally close to French as all Gallo-Italic dialects are due to shared isoglosses, it has a lot of French loans and direct influences in lexicon, idioms, etc., that set apart even from the rest of Gallo-Italic.

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    Spectateur Tel Errant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Scharrenhans View Post
    I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears? I ask this because, in addition to being structurally close to French as all Gallo-Italic dialects are due to shared isoglosses, it has a lot of French loans and direct influences in lexicon, idioms, etc., that set apart even from the rest of Gallo-Italic.
    It's not as foreign as Sicilian, but it still sounds clearly Italian to me. It can have many loans it doesn't make a big difference, English too has a huge lot of French loans and yet it's often very difficult to recognise them.
    Last edited by Tel Errant; 05-27-2012 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Parce que

  9. #189
    Member Arthur Scharrenhans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tel Errant View Post
    It's not as foreign as Sicilian, but it still sounds clearly Italian to me. It can have many loans it doesn't make a big difference, English too has a huge lot of French loans and yet it's often very difficult to recognise them.
    Right, but English is from a different language family and for all its peculiarities it still has (as I argued elsewhere) typically Germanic phonology & phonotactics, so no wonder that French loans were phonetically altered, while the phonology of Piedmontese, at least on paper, is maybe more similar to that of French.

    Thanks for your answer anyway, it confirms to me that intonation is probably the single biggest component in accents.

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    Franc-mâchon Mesrine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Scharrenhans View Post
    I'm curious about this point - doesn't Piedmontese sound at least a bit French to French ears?
    Absolutely not, it sounds definitely "Italian". Even Valdôtains sound Italian when they speak French, just like any Italian who learned French.

    [YOUTUBE]48KntLeYj18[/YOUTUBE]

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