The sound of Romance

[Comte Arnau]

Uh, really?
I know only 16.
And since the nasal "un"-sound is virtually extinct (no more difference between nasal "un" and "in"), I use only 15 of them.

I see I counted in long open e and the old 'un' as different vowels. So yes, I guess they'd be 15 in practice. If it's true that the trend is not to distinguish a from â either, then maybe spoken French and Portuguese have got the same number? You'll know better, my French isn't native.

[archangel]

sounds melodic

[Peyrol]

Pure ligurian...100% archaic genovese...i understand less than 40% of the song...

(beautiful video, good images from Eastern Liguria.(Portofino, 5 Terre, Sestri Levante, etc..)...the greatest place on Earth)




Lyrics in ligurian:



Umbre de muri muri de mainé

dunde ne vegnì duve l'è ch'ané

da 'n scitu duve a l'ûn-a a se mustra nûa

e a neutte a n'à puntou u cutellu ä gua

e a muntä l'àse gh'é restou Diu

u Diàu l'é in çë e u s'è gh'è faetu u nìu

ne sciurtìmmu da u mä pe sciugà e osse da u Dria

e a funtan-a di cumbi 'nta cä de pria

E 'nt'a cä de pria chi ghe saià

int'à cä du Dria che u nu l'è mainà

gente de Lûgan facce da mandillä

qui che du luassu preferiscian l'ä

figge de famiggia udù de bun

che ti peu ammiàle senza u gundun

E a 'ste panse veue cose che daià

cose da beive, cose da mangiä

frittûa de pigneu giancu de Purtufin

çervelle de bae 'nt'u meximu vin

lasagne da fiddià ai quattru tucchi

paciûgu in aegruduse de lévre de cuppi

E 'nt'a barca du vin ghe naveghiemu 'nsc'i scheuggi

emigranti du rìe cu'i cioi 'nt'i euggi

finché u matin crescià da puéilu rechéugge

frè di ganeuffeni e dè figge

bacan d'a corda marsa d'aegua e de sä

che a ne liga e a ne porta 'nte 'na creuza de mä

[Ouistreham]

I see I counted in long open e and the old 'un' as different vowels. So yes, I guess they'd be 15 in practice. If it's true that the trend is not to distinguish a from â either, then maybe spoken French and Portuguese have got the same number? You'll know better, my French isn't native.

— The long open 'e' (which is supposed to distinguish faire from fer or mère from mer) is very unstable, few people consciously pronounce it (except in Belgium).

— Yes, there is a trend to merge the long closed 'â' with the open 'a'. I do not, but I think 80% of French speakers pronounce pâtes (sauce bolognaise) just like pattes (de chien).

I'm not happy with such evolutions, but I think these are subtleties non-native speakers don't need to bother with.

[Ouistreham]

So many different names for the butterfly in the Romance languages, but most of them sound kinda nice.


Portuguese-Galician: borboleta/bolboreta
Mirandese: paixarina
Asturian: pumarina
Spanish: mariposa

Aragonese: paxarela

Catalan: papallona
Aran Gascon: parpalhòla
Occitan: parpalhon
French: papillon
Picard: paviole
Arpitan: parpelyon
Piemontese: parpajon (Perd?)
Romansh: tgiralla
Friulian: pavee

Italian: farfalla
Neapolitan: palommella

Romanian: fluture

Sardinian: barabatula

You should have added, next to Picard paviole :
Walloon: pavion
Lorrain: pawion
Norman: pivolette (but Swiss French pivole means "ladybird")

And next to Friulian pavee :
Venetian: pavegio

Note that the the p-v theme appears in Northern France as well as in Northeastern Italy, just like the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.

Hey, Piedmontese is closer to Occitan than Catalan is:

Catalan: papallona
Occitan: parpalhon
Piemontese: parpajon

There is the same mindboggling variety in the Germanic group, with similar unexpected parentages:

English: butterfly
Standard German: Schmetterling, but many regional variants prefer Falter
Low German: bottervagel (= "butterbird", somewhat similar to English)
Bavarian: derivates of Falter, but also Summafogl (like in Norwegian!)
Low Saxon: vlinder, pennevoegel
Dutch: vlinder
Frisian: flinder
Limburgish: kapel
Danish, Norwegian: sommerfugl
Swedish: fjäril (certainly old Norse word)
Icelandic: fiðrild

[Peyrol]

Neapolitan ''Palommella'', even if is referred to a butterfly, literally means ''little dove'' (neapolitan for dove/pidgeno is ''Palomma'').

[Damião de Góis]

Note that the the p-v theme appears in Northern France as well as in Northeastern Italy, just like the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.

I also noticed that. But there is no connection here, this similarity is a bit of a mistery.

[Ouistreham]

Neapolitan ''Palommella'', even if is referred to a butterfly, literally means ''little dove'' (neapolitan for dove/pidgeno is ''Palomma'').

Many Germanic names also classify butterflies as "birds"!

the Sardinian word has its only cognate in Portuguese.
— I also noticed that. But there is no connection here, this similarity is a bit of a mistery.

For small animals and plants that are neither essential to agriculture nor highly distinctive, similar common names often appear in non-contiguous areas.

A well-known instance is pardal, the word for "sparrow" in both Portuguese and Catalan, while Castilian and its peripheral dialects all use gorriòn or gurriòn.

[Comte Arnau]

I'm not happy with such evolutions, but I think these are subtleties non-native speakers don't need to bother with.

Well, I bother. I've always been interested in the accurate pronunciation of the standards in any language, something traditional books never cared about.

Hey, Piedmontese is closer to Occitan than Catalan is:

Well, basically because of that antietymological r.

Papallona is the word in Standard Catalan and the one I've only ever heard, but according to the Catalan/Valencian/Balearic Dictionary, these internal variants exist too: papalló, paloma, palometa, pampallola, papillota, papiola, voliaina, voliana.
Most of them apparently used in Western Catalan and in the Islands.

In Aragonese, aside from paxarela, they've got palometa too (so apparently 'little dove' is used in several places), as well as birabolas and pilazana.

[Comte Arnau]

Bumping up this nice thread with a folk Galician song.

You dragged your butt along the hay,
there on the ground a bed you lay
and you moistened your sweet little clam
since last summer it hadn't been damp