Bosnian Serb Mehmet Sokolovic (Ottoman Grandvizier): Crypto Orthodox?

[HELLBANIAN]

To me it seems that Albanians have always used religion for political benefits and military benefits, Gjon Kastrioti was noted as having changed his religion multiple times depending on who was the most powerful nation or ally in the area. The Souliotes were Orthodox Albanians, I think they settled in Greece from southern Albania. They came into conflict with Ali Pasha when Ali Pasha attacked their villages and the Greeks aided them against Ali Pasha. Vaso Pasha was nationalistic if anything, I think that the vast majority of Albanians would agree that a nation without religion but with complete unity is better than a nation with religion and no unity. Religion imo is BS and people should stop believing something which is clearly a fantasy. I've realized that many Albanians turn to Christianity online because they want to seem more western or European despite them being born into Muslim families.

Exactly. It would of been stupid for Albanians to fight over religion at that time while at the same time we got invaded by our neighbours who pretty much wanted to exterminate us and take our lands.

Vaso Pasha saw the silliness of these Semitic religions and how Albanians of these different faiths assimilated into their neighbors.

[HELLBANIAN]

The problem is not so much having religion in a nation, because we all know what happened with Albania when Communism came with force. All one need do is look at a nation with multiple religions and separation of church and state, coupled with education and cultural promotion to see that a multi-religious nation with one culture can work. So long as the socio-political structure is separate from religion as well as for and by the people. I believe in God, I am a moderate liberal Muslim. As my grandfather always said though, "your religion is between you and God. Leave it at home when you walk out the door". The problem is most people don't understand that, and some nations operate from religion as a cultural stand point.

My initial point was that it would of been impossible for Albanians to unite under one religion due to historical reasons. Before we even developed a national consciousness we had many different religions and had been subjects to different empires who we took these religions from.

[Arborean]

My initial point was that it would of been impossible for Albanians to unite under one religion due to historical reasons. Before we even developed a national consciousness we had many different religions and had been subjects to different empires who we took these religions from.

Oh of course. No arguing that. All organized religion is definitely BS it should be personal and natural without doubt. The problem is people will always believe something, and any truth(even applied with force) hold the same recipe for disaster that organized religion does. Natural rights are of utmost import in society. That is how it prospers. I think in this regard our people are moving in the right direction. Poverty remains their only enemy. We can see how successful many Disapora Albanians have become. But, let me not derail the subject of the thread lol.

[HELLBANIAN]

Oh of course. No arguing that. All organized religion is definitely BS it should be personal and natural without doubt. The problem is people will always believe something, and any truth(even applied with force) hold the same recipe for disaster that organized religion does. Natural rights are of utmost import in society. That is how it prospers. I think in this regard our people are moving in the right direction. Poverty remains their only enemy. We can see how successful many Disapora Albanians have become. But, let me not derail the subject of the thread lol.

Exactly. It's impossible to unite under one religion since people will always have their own beliefs that goes against the norm or what the state itself suggests for example. Especially with the availability of the internet where all this information is available. Serbs and Greeks are united under one religion but many are not even Christians or believe in it. They just see it as a national symbol or nationalism since the Orthodox church played a role in their history and national identity or national consciousness. This is actually something bad that I cannot explain right now properly. Let's just say we don't live in the 15th century anymore. More and more people are moving away from organised religion or such religions and since it still played a role in shaping people's national identity in the past it causes kind of a dilemma.

[Arborean]

Exactly. It's impossible to unite under one religion since people will always have their own beliefs that goes against the norm or what the state itself suggests for example. Especially with the availability of the internet where all this information is available. Serbs and Greeks are united under one religion but many are not even Christians or believe in it. They just see it as a national symbol or nationalism since the Orthodox church played a role in their history and national identity or national consciousness. This is actually something bad that I cannot explain right now properly. Let's just say we don't live in the 15th century anymore. More and more people are moving away from organised religion or such religions and since it still played a role in shaping people's national identity in the past it causes kind of a dilemma.

I couldn't agree more. You have Romeika speakers on the black sea coast who speak an older form of Greek than the mainland whom were traded off during the population exchange for being Muslim. Now their dialect is in danger of dying off. Its like Proto-Albanian speakers being kicked out of the Ottoman empire for being Pagan or something. Cheesy analogy but you get my point. Unless someone is a nuisance, peoples culture and landmarks should be maintained to some degree. Of course with cultural evolution and progress some things will change, but naturally as opposed to artificially.