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Thread: Italian genetics

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    Default Italian genetics

    So can someone explain exactly who are Italians? From the 23andme PCA plots it gives the impression that Italians are just Mid-Easterners.

    Here is a Sicilian (I think north Italians also end up in the same place among the orange squares).



    And then this one from John Novembre, which tells a different story (Italians close to central Europe as much as Balkan people are):



    McDonald's BGA:



    So is 23andme's PCA plot completely wrong?

    Looking at Italians, especially those from Milan, I can't really see them being that genetically close to Assyrians and etc. Lots of lighter Nordic types, some who almost look German.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bastarnae View Post
    Lots of lighter Nordic types, some who almost look German.
    Italians, especially Sicilians had a lot of influence from other people. Sicily was practically a port. Vikings, Normans, and Berbers came to Italy/Sicily and had an influence. The lighter Italians that you are talking about were more then likely influenced by an outer source, probably vikings/normands. A good example would be my great grandpa, he was Sicilian yet was about 6"2-3 and had blue eyes.

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    Racial type and population genetics don't always correspond 1:1 anyway...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Racial type and population genetics don't always correspond 1:1 anyway...
    True. So if the first PCA plot is the closest to reality, do you think Italians kind of "sexually selected" fair hair & eyes while still retaining a overall Mid-Eastern autosomal profile?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boadicea View Post
    Italians, especially Sicilians had a lot of influence from other people.
    I still have the feeling that Normans, Vandals and whoever where just the ruling elites & never significantly changed the gene pool of Sicily.

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    From what I saw so far, Italians have no "Mid-Eastern profile", they have just a stronger Near Eastern influence than many other Europeans, that's it.

    And the amount of this influence corresponds to geography, with the more Northern regions having usually less of it.

    So there is not even such a genotypical-phenotypical gap.

    Also, you don't always know when and which elements came from the Near East, probably there was a very long time for selection in between or they were of a different kind than now. F.e. Anatolia and the whole Levantine area was once much more Mediterranid than it is now.

    The higher "South West Asian" numbers for Italians are intriguing though and have to be explained, probably by Metal Age and later movements.

    Italians got a lot of influences from both, the North and further East/South.

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    Italians aren't genetically Middle Eastern in the modern sense, just the far south is genetically akin to the Neolithic populations that moved into Europe as well as others who settled there; Greeks, Phoenicians, Normans etc with Greeks being a particularly strong influence. Greeks are the same way.

    With 23andme Northern Italians would appear further north than the orange squares at the bottom (which is where far southern Italians and Greeks appear) and would appear closer to the break between the larger cluster of green squares and the few that drift toward the bottom, which is where Iberians appear although they are pulled slightly toward the Basques. and on Doug McDonald's chart, northern and central Italians appear where is labeled Italian, but since he doesn't have southerners marked off on there, they appear between the Tuscans and the Jews.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmariexo View Post
    Italians aren't genetically Middle Eastern in the modern sense
    And neither in the "ancient sense".

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    Quote Originally Posted by alzo zero View Post
    And neither in the "ancient sense".
    You understood what I meant. Either way you're all the way up north practically in the Alps so I don't see why it would offend you if your southern countrymen are somewhat related to the original Neolithic peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmariexo View Post
    You understood what I meant. Either way you're all the way up north practically in the Alps so I don't see why it would offend you if your southern countrymen are somewhat related to the original Neolithic peoples.
    I'm not offended. I was just correcting you. By the way, when you mention the "Italians" you are referring to us "up north in the Alps" as well, it should go without saying.

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    Here Italians are divided in North, Tuscan, Central, and South :


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