Rudolf Hess, Martyr for Peace

[Hess]

this discussion seems to be getting interesting. Bump!

[Guapo]

Bump!

Typical Croat. Stirring trouble where there isn't any.

Soviet soldiers were among the biggest perpetrators in the rapes of Germans during the occupation.

Says the Ratko Mladic worshipper.

[Debaser11]

Whether you've read my message attentively? I said only about things I know personally.

Yeah, and Germans have similar stories. That doesn't prove the anti-German narrative about WWII to be correct because you have "stories." Sheesh.

So, it's possible to understand, I think, that it's about something private. Though documents, facts, statistics, evidences are enough to do some conclusions,

What documents, facts, statistics, and "evidences" pray tell? That's what I'm asking for basically and you have nothing. Surprise, surprise.

however I speak about my family's fate only.

Because that's all you can do. But guess what? That, again, doesn't prove that the Nazis were doing what Jews, lying Ruskies, communists, and traitorous Westerners in general accuse them of doing overall. Though it's not difficult to prove that the Allies (particularly the raping Russians) were far from being the sanctimonious bunch they claim to be according to textbooks and History Channel documentaries.

Of course, I will not go into details of war horrors,

Again, because you largely don't know what you're talking about like every other knee-jerk believer in Hollywood anti-Nazi propaganda.

with which my relatives have come face to face, because I don't love to do show from tragedy. My family has wide geography - different regions of Russia and Ukraine, including Volgograd city (Or Stalingrad in the USSR. This city, full of civilians, has been almost completely destroyed during WW2). My great-grandfathers protected their country, and their families have endured much during of the German invasion.

That's terrible. But that's war. The Germans endured much suffering at the hands of Russian communists. Does that mean all Red Army officers are unworthy of being called "heroic"?

Besides history of my family I have many Russian, Belarusian, Ukrainian and other friends, who have told to me about their stories also (though, I suppose it's only "hearsays" for you).

Everyone has sob stories to tell about war. Even Germans. Guess what? Your country was not only communist, but it also invaded the Baltic states, Poland (where my family is from!) on two occasions, Finland, and starved close to four million Ukranians while promulgating a strategy for world domination far beyond anything the Nazis said they wished to do. From this, you don't expect Germans to be a little bit trigger itchy when taking into account not only the Soviet Union's hostile posturing, but also, the Western Allies' hostile posturing? Of course, the two Allied sides (England and the U.S./ Soviet Union) become bedfellows in bringing about utter chaos and misery not only to the German people, but to Western Europe as a whole. And Germany saw this coming in advance is faulted for acting on what it saw.

OK, now I will explain, why I have written such a comment, even being the Germanophile. In spite of the Past and our own bitter experience, I don't hate Germans.

I find it more remarkable that Germans don't hate Russians, honestly, despite the sanctimonious tone you display.

Correctly to say, that Russian people in general do not hate or blame modern Germany, because hatred towards Germans has not been cultivated in our country or within the scope of my family as an example. Like I never tended to judge someone because of the past, politics, stereotypes, biases etc.

Well, you're "judging" Hess whom you seem to know little about.

Every country had cruel history with some peoples.

Even if I were to accept the Holocaust nonsense (which is largely a myth), the numbers of people put through sheer terror and misery at the hands of your country by far outweighs anything the Germans did.

But I do not speak all around, what these damned "put a nationality" are soooo bad, awful, barbaric, etc. I don't exploit the past, don't play with painful feelings and don't manipulate emotions of people to achieve my objectives or to try to get a general approval and sympathy. I can tell many gruesome stories to use them as the arguments to gain all compassionate people over, but I don’t do this kind of things.

Nor do I want you to. I just wanted you to rationally support your point of view which you're not doing. It's just an emotion-filled response void of any reason.

You can search all my messages at the forum, and you will not find any comment with anti-German propaganda. But you can find some messages, where I speak only good things about Germany. And after that, because of the only one my comment, you have the insolence to say, that I play games against Germans?

Well, if questioning your lack of knowledge on a subject you demonstrate little knowledge about is insolent, then label me "guilty" as charged.

It's a contrary situation at this forum. I constantly read sh*tty comments concerning USSR,

As you should.

Russia and Russian/Slavic people,

Well, that's unfortunate. But that also has absolutely nothing to do with our little exchange here. The fact that you even bring up such a red herring illustrates perfectly how emotionally charged your response is as opposed to being based on any sort of reason.

while Nazis deserve general respect. But as the adequate and loyal person, I always preferred to not enter into wrangles. But I see all the time, how some people here glorify Hitler, fascists/German soldiers, how people use Nazi avatars, how people try to whitewash themselves at the cost of dishonoring of others.

I'm not dishonoring anyone, here. You're attempting to dishonor someone without any clear cause or evidence to do so and I'm merely defending him.

It is a norm here. Some Germans here don't see anything bad, wrong or humiliating for their Aryan souls in a birthday wishes to Hitler, for example.

Why should they? Are you a Jew or some dirty communist or something?

On the contrary, they will be indignant, if any "Russian Untermensch" dares to put in his shy opinion.

Take it up with them. Not me.

I even have read once, how one German has written, that he "feels pleasure when he thinks of how the USSR was bombed".

Take it up with him. Not me. This nonsense has nothing to do with the content in your post I responded to. And for the record, how many movies are out there where we root for Nazis to get killed for being Nazis versus Ruskies getting killed for being communists? Just off the top of my head, Inglorious Basterds and the new X-Men movie both showed innocent Nazis being brutalized savagely. The audience is supposed to cheer this and get a sick orgiastic sense of pleasure from it. I have never seen such treatment in the media of your countrymen.

Whether he thought how some people can feel about it? No, he didn't care of it.

Take it up with the person in question. Are you here to argue points relevant to the topic with me or just bitch incessantly about some other guy (whom I have no control over) and what he said about Russians and whatnot?

But imagine vice-versa situation: somebody would begin a theme "Stalin is the Hero of our Time", being based on facts that he was the big patriot and strong personality...and don't pay attention he was the dictator and the criminal at the same time...

Except that Stalin actually recorded his atrocities. They are easily veriable. Many (and most) of the crimes that Nazis are accused of committing by the mainstream Zionist media have never been verified and are dubious by applying simple logic which you seem to not understand.

I bet that nobody of you would understand such a "joke". However enough of people find all these Heil-Hitler themes "pretty nice". I really hated to say those words, but I have told them because of indignation, when someone asserts that the USSR was the barbarous state and the Great Germany was the country of exceptionally strong, courageous and noble people. I've read somewhere here that "German soldiers were better, than Soviet"... Sorry, but it was the last straw.

They probably largely were. They were probably better than most soldiers out there, period. Sorry that hurts your feelings. But because you go on about how such an acknowledgement is "the last straw," doesn't mean that what they're saying may not be true.

Because I was revolted by image of "nice and kind Germans", who have invaded territories of our countries, and were dishing out chocolates to children and women, and we were joyfully welcoming them.

Well, they did do those kind things in some areas. That's just a fact about the nobility of some German troops whether it offends your delicate sensibilities or not. Just like not every Russian soldier raped every German woman they could get their hands on. Some even tried to stop such rapes. Should acknowledging that offend Germans? By your logic, if a Russian soldier is portrayed positively, I should be outraged as a German sympathizer.

You tell about particular cases and claim them as a rule. But it's only one side of the coin and it's ignorant to do conclusions about behaviour of German soldiers in territory of the occupied countries, not everything was so good as someone want to picture it.

Seriously...what the fuck are you talking about?

All my great-grandfathers have fought in the war, one of them battled in Stalingrad. And I am proud of them, of their actions, of their will to live, of their boldness, of their protection of the country and people.

Well, good for you. Again, nothing to do with our discussion. Just exposition I didn't need to hear. I have relatives that fought on the Western front. You don't see me going on about it when having an academic discussion about a historical figure or event.

So, I hope you get the point.

Not at all. All I have gathered is that you feel bad when people view Nazis positively and say nasty things about your country. Well, too bad.

analysis of a situation is a one thing, but one-sided claims is another. It's normal when people, discussing a theme, try to understand both sides. If you have stated the fact, that there were heroes
and anti-heroes from both sides, I wouldn't tell a word against even.

Well, of course. That doesn't mean both sides have just as many guilty parties, though. You just want it to be a wash so you can go on not having your delicate sensibilities hurt. Again, too bad.

But I have never read any kind or sympathetic words concerning the Soviet people/soldiers.

Cry me a river! This point you bitch about on a thread dedicated to Rudolf Hess (who was a good man)? It's not like I'm on some "Russian appreciation thread" trolling on about how one of their more courageous figureheads shouldn't be considered a hero. That would make me like you.

All Russians (like me or Максим) try to be more thoughtful, try to understand and to justify the ex-enemies in some ways even if it's a hard thing to do. But you have adopted the position that you are white, and we are black and we "were even worse". And it is what I can't accept.

Well, don't accept it. But all you're doing here is admitting that you can't be objective. If you weren't so self-absorbed about your own country, you'd understand that my position has an American has serious ramifications for how I view my own country's actions during WWII. That doesn't stop me from trying to be honest about the facts of the conflict. You can't get past the "me Russian/Russians good" phase. You strike me as the type of person that, were you an American, you wouldn't be able to admit that dropping nuclear bombs on Japan was immoral because "Japan did bad stuff too."

Yes, I love Germans (not all of them, of course).

No, of course not. Some of them you even hate without demonstrating any knowledge that you understand them (such as Hess).

There are some very lovely Germans at this forum. And I hope they understand, that my words have not been directed against Germans, because I didn't have a purpose to put to shame someone. War is war... It would be better for everyone if there was no war. All people have suffered… Destiny separates people to the opposite sides of the barricades, and you have to choose your side. Being Russian, of course, you will always stand on the Russian side, while Germans will have another truth.

By that logic, ethics goes out the window. Even as a strong nationalist myself, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If my country does something immoral, I will not support the specific action itself just because I'm an American.

P.S.
And about Rudolf Hess. No, he is not the hero for me, though I have never called him coward or non-patriot.

Nah, you just decided to troll a thread that was dedicated to him.

Probably, he was good for Germany, however he was not good for my country,

In what way? Do you even know anything about the man other than the fact that he was a Nazi?

that is the main thing for me. Therefore I don't really care of feelings of Europeans in this case, just like they don't care of feelings of Russian people.

I don't care about feelings that are unfounded and not based on any reason, but rather, an ignorant historical perspective.

[Hess]

Typical Croat. Stirring trouble where there isn't any

[Guapo]

Balkan nigger

[El Palleter]

How convenient. I guess in your world the onus is never on the people who make positive claims, but those who ask for information.

How about we cut through the fat of "decent biography" (there are also plenty of wild stories about the man that are biographies--see The Hitler's Henchmen series on youtube) and you just supply some actual evidence for whatever it is you're claiming about Hess's character that is worthy of ridicule rather than respect?

In the context decent means just a biography that goes beyond the basics of his date and place of birth

There isn't a group of denial of Hess having been a pupil of Haushofer yet (maybe you want to start one)

Anyone suggesting the National Socialists actually entertained plans for World Domination is standing on extremely shaky ground -- in fact, you're wandering dangerously close to conspiracy theory territory with the amount of hard evidence that can be produced substantiating that claim.

Have you bother researching the theories of Karl Haushofer before typying this piece?

It's a popular myth, furthered by the American "History Channel" and similar sources of WTC-myths, amateur DaVinci Code imitators, and generally paranoid unemployed (unemployable?) individuals who spend a lot of time in front of the television.

I gave you the keys to the question day ago. Have you done any reading since then, or you've been too busy on internet forums?

The "Lebensraum" doctrine is in no wise unique to the National Socialists; indeed, it was Americans who first suggested the idea and

Friedrich Ratzel. Not American

it made its circulation in Germany before National Socialism was a word in anyone's vocabulary.

Speaking of conspiranoics

I'm out of here

[Debaser11]

In the context decent means just a biography that goes beyond the basics of his date and place of birth

There isn't a group of denial of Hess having been a pupil of Haushofer yet (maybe you want to start one)

Giving you the benefit of the doubt about this Haushofer appeal, do you apply the guilty by association standard to everyone? (Clearly not.) Do you also believe in one inheriting the sins of the father?

How about we apply this same standard of condemnation to the Jews, for example?

[Thraex]

Yeah, and Germans have similar stories. That doesn't prove the anti-German narrative about WWII to be correct because you have "stories." Sheesh.



What documents, facts, statistics, and "evidences" pray tell? That's what I'm asking for basically and you have nothing. Surprise, surprise.



Because that's all you can do. But guess what? That, again, doesn't prove that the Nazis were doing what Jews, lying Ruskies, communists, and traitorous Westerners in general accuse them of doing overall. Though it's not difficult to prove that the Allies (particularly the raping Russians) were far from being the sanctimonious bunch they claim to be according to textbooks and History Channel documentaries.



Again, because you largely don't know what you're talking about like every other knee-jerk believer in Hollywood anti-Nazi propaganda.



That's terrible. But that's war. The Germans endured much suffering at the hands of Russian communists. Does that mean all Red Army officers are unworthy of being called "heroic"?



Everyone has sob stories to tell about war. Even Germans. Guess what? Your country was not only communist, but it also invaded the Baltic states, Poland (where my family is from!) on two occasions, Finland, and starved close to four million Ukranians while promulgating a strategy for world domination far beyond anything the Nazis said they wished to do. From this, you don't expect Germans to be a little bit trigger itchy when taking into account not only the Soviet Union's hostile posturing, but also, the Western Allies' hostile posturing? Of course, the two Allied sides (England and the U.S./ Soviet Union) become bedfellows in bringing about utter chaos and misery not only to the German people, but to Western Europe as a whole. And Germany saw this coming in advance is faulted for acting on what it saw.



I find it more remarkable that Germans don't hate Russians, honestly, despite the sanctimonious tone you display.



Well, you're "judging" Hess whom you seem to know little about.



Even if I were to accept the Holocaust nonsense (which is largely a myth), the numbers of people put through sheer terror and misery at the hands of your country by far outweighs anything the Germans did.



Nor do I want you to. I just wanted you to rationally support your point of view which you're not doing. It's just an emotion-filled response void of any reason.



Well, if questioning your lack of knowledge on a subject you demonstrate little knowledge about is insolent, then label me "guilty" as charged.



As you should.



Well, that's unfortunate. But that also has absolutely nothing to do with our little exchange here. The fact that you even bring up such a red herring illustrates perfectly how emotionally charged your response is as opposed to being based on any sort of reason.



I'm not dishonoring anyone, here. You're attempting to dishonor someone without any clear cause or evidence to do so and I'm merely defending him.



Why should they? Are you a Jew or some dirty communist or something?



Take it up with them. Not me.



Take it up with him. Not me. This nonsense has nothing to do with the content in your post I responded to. And for the record, how many movies are out there where we root for Nazis to get killed for being Nazis versus Ruskies getting killed for being communists? Just off the top of my head, Inglorious Basterds and the new X-Men movie both showed innocent Nazis being brutalized savagely. The audience is supposed to cheer this and get a sick orgiastic sense of pleasure from it. I have never seen such treatment in the media of your countrymen.



Take it up with the person in question. Are you here to argue points relevant to the topic with me or just bitch incessantly about some other guy (whom I have no control over) and what he said about Russians and whatnot?




Except that Stalin actually recorded his atrocities. They are easily veriable. Many (and most) of the crimes that Nazis are accused of committing by the mainstream Zionist media have never been verified and are dubious by applying simple logic which you seem to not understand.



They probably largely were. They were probably better than most soldiers out there, period. Sorry that hurts your feelings. But because you go on about how such an acknowledgement is "the last straw," doesn't mean that what they're saying may not be true.



Well, they did do those kind things in some areas. That's just a fact about the nobility of some German troops whether it offends your delicate sensibilities or not. Just like not every Russian soldier raped every German woman they could get their hands on. Some even tried to stop such rapes. Should acknowledging that offend Germans? By your logic, if a Russian soldier is portrayed positively, I should be outraged as a German sympathizer.



Seriously...what the fuck are you talking about?



Well, good for you. Again, nothing to do with our discussion. Just exposition I didn't need to hear. I have relatives that fought on the Western front. You don't see me going on about it when having an academic discussion about a historical figure or event.



Not at all. All I have gathered is that you feel bad when people view Nazis positively and say nasty things about your country. Well, too bad.



Well, of course. That doesn't mean both sides have just as many guilty parties, though. You just want it to be a wash so you can go on not having your delicate sensibilities hurt. Again, too bad.



Cry me a river! This point you bitch about on a thread dedicated to Rudolf Hess (who was a good man)? It's not like I'm on some "Russian appreciation thread" trolling on about how one of their more courageous figureheads shouldn't be considered a hero. That would make me like you.



Well, don't accept it. But all you're doing here is admitting that you can't be objective. If you weren't so self-absorbed about your own country, you'd understand that my position has an American has serious ramifications for how I view my own country's actions during WWII. That doesn't stop me from trying to be honest about the facts of the conflict. You can't get past the "me Russian/Russians good" phase. You strike me as the type of person that, were you an American, you wouldn't be able to admit that dropping nuclear bombs on Japan was immoral because "Japan did bad stuff too."



No, of course not. Some of them you even hate without demonstrating any knowledge that you understand them (such as Hess).



By that logic, ethics goes out the window. Even as a strong nationalist myself, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If my country does something immoral, I will not support the specific action itself just because I'm an American.



Nah, you just decided to troll a thread that was dedicated to him.



In what way? Do you even know anything about the man other than the fact that he was a Nazi?



I don't care about feelings that are unfounded and not based on any reason, but rather, an ignorant historical perspective.

[Hess]