Do North Africans have any overlap with Europeans?

[Sikeliot]

I made a poll so choose all that apply.

I think that when you see some of the isolated Berber groups in the Maghreb, some of them do display phenotypical traits in common with Mediterranean Europeans, with some even able to pass for Northern European. Most of us are familiar with mixed North Africans, who have much Sub-Saharan and SW Asian admixture but a lot of the more isolated groups are in my opinion close to Europeans.

I want intellectual discussion in here so anyone with rude comments or trolling can take it elsewhere. More pics to come.

[Sikeliot]

Some others. Group photos would be better but it is hard to find pictures of some of the more isolated Berbers.

[GeistFaust]

I think most of them could fit into the Southwestern parts of Europe mostly in Spain, Portugal, and Italy but I could see some in France or Sicily as well. That one guy you have posted up in your first post looks Arabid to me. They clearly look exotic but this one guy looks almost like a Northwestern Borreby to me http://www.theapricity.com/forum/att...8&d=1309153147.

[StonyArabia]

To some extent but in reality not at all. In fact they have distinct Moorish vibe about them. The majority of North Africans look like that to a degree one way or another at least in the coastal and Northern regions. The Arabian impact was only signficant in Iraq. North Africa has almost no Arabian blood but rather some Arabian cultural traits. The Arabic they speak is not even understood by Arabs at all due to it's Berber words, grammar and baisis darja as it is called. The SSA elements at least in the South seem to be become dominant. North Africa was not Europe and never was, although some claim that it was. This is a fallacy only parts of North Africa were part of Europe but the majority did not. North Africans were not Christians but rather pagans. They adopted usually heretical Christian sects such the Arian tradition. When Islam came due to the Arab invasion many of the Berbers adopted and mixed it with their own traditions. The Arab influence was so minimal in North Africa, that there was almost no Arab political elite!

[GeistFaust]

To some extent but in reality not at all. In fact they have distinct Moorish vibe about them. The majority of North Africans look like that to a degree one way or another at least in the coastal and Northern regions. The Arabian impact was only signficant in Iraq. North Africa has almost no Arabian blood but rather some Arabian cultural traits. The Arabic they speak is not even understood by Arabs at all due to it's Berber words, grammar and baisis darja as it is called. The SSA elements at least in the South seem to be become dominant. North Africa was not Europe and never was, although some claim that it was. This is a fallacy only parts of North Africa were part of Europe but the majority did not. North Africans were not Christians but rather pagans. They adopted usually heretical Christian sects such the Arian tradition. When Islam came due to the Arab invasion many of the Berbers adopted and mixed it with their own traditions. The Arab influence was so minimal in North Africa, that there was almost no Arab political elite!

There was some slight Arabic influences although I would have to say the West Central Negroid types influenced the Berbers more than the Arabids. There was also a strong Turkish and Levantine population that came into Berber country at times and influenced them giving them an Armenoid look and vibe. I think because some of the Berbers lived in isolation for such a long period of time they were able to retain some of the looks that were influenced by foreign types from Europe.

[Sikeliot]

I have heard three different explanations for the presence of some heavily European types in North Africa but I am not sure if any of them are true;

1) Descendants of the Vandals
2) When the Moors were expelled from Iberia, some of the people expelled were those who had mixed with native Iberians, thus bringing Iberian ancestry back into North Africa
3) These types are indigenous to North Africa and represent the original population before there was any mixture.

[StonyArabia]

I have heard three different explanations for the presence of some heavily European types in North Africa but I am not sure if any of them are true;

In all degrees they do have basis of truth

1) Descendants of the Vandals

This is a possiblity the Vandals settled in the lands of the Kabyles and Tunisia these areas are high in blondism compared to other regions. As well there seems to be some Germanic influence.

2) When the Moors were expelled from Iberia, some of the people expelled were those who had mixed with native Iberians, thus bringing Iberian ancestry back into North Africa

This true and has proven by genetics and some cultural elements.

3) These types are indigenous to North Africa and represent the original population before there was any mixture.

Not really because the European types did exist they only looked superfacial European. The majority were rather Caucasians with their own distinct looks. The mixing occurred mostly in the South and among some tribes. The majority of North Africans are still Caucasians but are different from Europeans. Not even the original Canary Islanders looked European as they are often believed. Berbers are also not genetically linked to Iberians or Celts as it once believed. They are genetic isolate. Some what related:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...?t=5911&page=7

[GeistFaust]

I have heard three different explanations for the presence of some heavily European types in North Africa but I am not sure if any of them are true;

1) Descendants of the Vandals
2) When the Moors were expelled from Iberia, some of the people expelled were those who had mixed with native Iberians, thus bringing Iberian ancestry back into North Africa
3) These types are indigenous to North Africa and represent the original population before there was any mixture.

If you talk to a Berber they will tell you they are heavily Mediterranid which I would not disagree with them and also Levantine and Armenian influenced. They believe they share culture closer with Mediterranid and Levantines than Arabic or Negroid. They will go to any end to not have their name attached to primitive and savage Negroid tribes. I think the Berbers represent a very indigenous type to that area and the strong Cro Magnon in a lot of those individuals is indicative of this. I think the Arabian, Negroid, Iberian, Vandal, and Celtic influences were minimal and Berbers are largely Asiatic, Semitic, East Med in their genetic composition. They might be related to some ancient Proto Semitic and Mediterranid types which the Iberian peoples arose from.

[Sikeliot]

What is the proposed origin of the Berbers? Were they always there, or as one Neolithic wave went into Europe, another went into North Africa?

[GeistFaust]

What is the proposed origin of the Berbers? Were they always there, or as one Neolithic wave went into Europe, another went into North Africa?

I think they are tied into the Neolithic wave but I think their origins go back much further than that could be a very archaic proto Indo European type that was part Asiatic and than ended up settling in Yemen where they subsequently probably married in with Indid influenced Arabids. Than they might have had some influences later on from Hamitic and Nilohitic tribes which is still the case today in some areas where the Berbers exist. They later became much more Mediterranized probably during due to the mesolithic and neolithic influences but Berbers could have indigenous roots in Africa that go back to the Upper Paelolithic time period.