Arvanite Music

[Uski]

I am happy to have real conversations regarding Epirus any time-- but I will not hesitate to strike back at ridiculousness. A few things to talk about--

#1) The English does not Translate from the Original Text in Greek by Psalides on Wikepedia correctly. When Psalidas is referign to Cham's, he is referring to Paramythia and Delvino... not Souli or the Souliotes. Psalides actually states the Souliotes were Γραικούς πολεμιστές which translates to Greek Warriors and his stating that in an ethnical sense. Here is the original Text in Greek from the book Wikipedia cites. It's a cherry picking of facts the way it is presented.

In Nikolakopoulos, Ilias, Kouloubis Theodoros A. & Thanos M. Veremis (eds). Ο Ελληνισμός της Αλβανίας [The Greeks of Albania]. University of Athens. p. 36, 47: "Οι κατοικούντες εις Παραμυθίαν και Δέλβινον λέγονται Τζαμηδες και ο τόπος Τζαμουριά», δίδασκε ο Αθανάσιος Ψαλίδας στις αρχές του 19ου αιώνα και συνέχιζε: «Κατοικείται από Γραικούς και Αλβανούς· οι πρώτοι είναι περισσότεροι», ενώ διέκρινε τους δεύτερους σε Αλβανούς Χριστιανούς και Αλβανούς Μουσουλμάνους." Στην Τσαμουριά υπάγει επίσης την περιφέρεια της Πάργας, χωρίς να διευκρινίζει τον εθνοπολιτισμικό της χαρακτήρα, καθώς και τα χωριά του Σουλίου, κατοικούμενα από «Γραικούς πολεμιστές».

#2) Ali Pasha is the Third Most Unpopular Man in Modern Greek History, after Hitler and Stalin. Ali Pasha was a murderous tyrant who kidnapped men and women for his Harem and Seraglio-- Albanians consider him a Greek sympathizer but the Greeks hated him. This is why Lord Byron joined the Greeks after he spent time with Ali Pasha. Lord Byron's Don Juan is a coded message for his time with Ali Pasha.

#3) Round and Round we go-- Western Scholars do NOT place the Souliotes as Ethnic Albanians. This only became a debate after 1992 when the Hoxha era ended. People who propagate the Fallmerayer theory are the only ones who consider the Souliotes Ethnic Albanians because they believe Greeks were all Dead, Killed Off, and Re-populated by Albanians. The major issue with this is that Modern DNA testing completely disproves this narrative and the Fallmerayer theory. "The Hellenic race has died out in Europe." This bold assertion made by Fallmerayer was made in the year 1830. The eminent German scholar of the time, Zinkeisen disproved Fallmerayer's statements by means of a careful and systematic research of Byzantine historians, and thereby succeeded in exposing many errors and superficialities of Fallmerayer's writing. After Zinkeisen came scientific men like Ludwig Ross, Ernst Curtius, and Carl Mendelssohn-Bartholdi, who aided in refuting Fallmerayer's theories completely! The reiteration of Fallmerayer's error may appear superfluous, but it is NOT; for there are many people who have read Fallmerayer only and are ignorant of the fact that his statements have been refuted. The publications of Fallmerayer actually produced some good results: they caused one of the most obscure periods in the histroy of the Middle Ages to be thoroughly investigated by eminent scholars. These investigations have shown that the Greeks of today are the direct descendants of the ancient Greeks; and their war for independence from 1821 to 1828 is evidence that they are also heirs of the immortal glory which lives in the annals of history of their ancestors.

Well i wouldnt trust wikipedia so much. The same article on sulioutes says they spoke albanian beside greek because of their albanian origin, and considering they were surrounded by chams and labs, it would make sense that they were of similar stock, although with greek influence. Now, i never said i believe in any theory like the one youre saying, some of the people who prove of their albanian descent were ethnic greeks. In that Albanian -speaking Suliots and Hydriots, Vlach speaking Thessalians and Epirots, and Slav-speaking Macedonians had fought in insurgent Greece along with the ethnic Greeks, and no one at the time had thought any of these non-Greek speakers less Greek than the Greek-speakers for speaking little or nothing of the language. This is the reason why they are called greek warriors, they fighting for the greek cause because they had no idea of an albanian nation. Considering that a large ammount of authors call them albanian either by directly getting to know them or by learning about them, and knowing that at that time anyone who was greek orthodox was greek by implication, we can safely assume the authors who describe these greek warriors are reffering about their religion. Still my point stands they were albanian, a confederation like that could have gotten in enough greek epirots to consider themselves greek, but it never did.


Either way they "became" greek (???) later on.

[E24-H08]

All these multiple syllable names are not True Albanian Tribe's and they were most likely names given to them for various reasons. 90% of Albanians have two syllable names. This is just fact.

You talk about the Souliotes as "IF" they were a Tribe of people. They were not. They were an Anti-Ottoman Confederacy. Some people that became part of the Souliote Confederacy were Ethnic Albanians... but the Majority were Ethnic Greeks with Hellenic surnames. Look it up-- start listing the names of Souliotes. The 4 main villages of the Souliotes were started by Ethnic Greek Families that still to this very day Identify as GREEK. Let's start talking about your "undisputed scholars" because the two main and true sources are Lord Byron / Hobhouse pre Dance of Zalongo and Christoforos Perraivos.

You stated that Albanians don't have 4 syllable last names. I provided many examples. Now you're just making up excuses and claims without basis.

[Epirus DNA]

You stated that Albanians don't have 4 syllable last names. I provided many examples. Now you're just making up excuses and claims without basis.

Some Albo's have 3 Syllable names... but the majority of the true non-turkified, non-greekified, non-italinaized Albo's have 2 Syllables and their names come from their tribe. The names that have more than 2 Syllables within their own language further developed from their ethnogenesis and are not part of their linguistic origin. There was either an outside influence or an additional syllable added for differentiation or marriage between tribes.

Why am I explaining your own culture to you?

Tribal regions

Classification of the Albanian tribes by Franz Seiner, 1918.
Malësia e Madhe


The tribes of Malësia e Madhe, in the Northern Albanian Alps, include ten tribes.
These are commonly called "highlanders" (Albanian: malësorët).
Kelmendi
Gruda
Hoti (partially in Montenegro)
Kastrati
Shkreli
Triesh
Pulat

There are five tribes of the Pulat region.
Plan
Xhani
Kiri
Suma
Drishti
Dukagjin

There are six tribes of the Dukagjin region.
Shala
Shoshi
Shllaku
Mazreku
Dushmani
Toplana

Another division is that of the Dukagjin highlands, in which Shala, Shoshi, Kiri, Xhani, Plani and Toplana are included.

Gjakova highlands[edit]
There are five tribes of the Gjakova highlands (Albanian: Malësia e Gjakovës).

Nikaj (commonly grouped as Nikaj-Mërtur)
Mërturi (commonly grouped as Nikaj-Mërtur)
Krasniqja or Krasniqi
Gashi
Bytyçi
Puka

The "seven tribes of Puka" (Albanian: shtatë bajrakët e Pukës), inhabit the Puka region.
Durham said of them: "Puka group ... sometimes reckoned a large tribe of seven bairaks. Sometimes as a group of tribes".

Qerreti
Puka
Kabashi
Berisha or Berisha-Merturi
Thaçi
Mali i Zi
Mirdita
Skana
Dibrri
Fani
Kushneni
Oroshi
Spaqi
Kthella
Selita

Lezha Highland
Bulgëri
Kryezezi
Manatia
Vela

Kruja Highlands
Kurbini
Ranza
Benda
Mat region
Bushkashi
Mati

Upper Drin basin
Hasi
Luma
Lura
Arrëni
Dibra
References

[Epirus DNA]

Well i wouldnt trust wikipedia so much. The same article on sulioutes says they spoke albanian beside greek because of their albanian origin, and considering they were surrounded by chams and labs, it would make sense that they were of similar stock, although with greek influence. Now, i never said i believe in any theory like the one youre saying, some of the people who prove of their albanian descent were ethnic greeks. In that Albanian -speaking Suliots and Hydriots, Vlach speaking Thessalians and Epirots, and Slav-speaking Macedonians had fought in insurgent Greece along with the ethnic Greeks, and no one at the time had thought any of these non-Greek speakers less Greek than the Greek-speakers for speaking little or nothing of the language. This is the reason why they are called greek warriors, they fighting for the greek cause because they had no idea of an albanian nation. Considering that a large ammount of authors call them albanian either by directly getting to know them or by learning about them, and knowing that at that time anyone who was greek orthodox was greek by implication, we can safely assume the authors who describe these greek warriors are reffering about their religion. Still my point stands they were albanian, a confederation like that could have gotten in enough greek epirots to consider themselves greek, but it never did.

Either way they "became" greek (???) later on.

Your point does not stand. It's a straw-mans argument. You're putting the Albanian Ethnic spin on this entire conversation all over again. Yes, the Chams existed. Yes, Tosk Albanians moved South into Epirus during the Ottoman Occupation. This does not equate to the entire population of Epirus being Albanian or of Albanian Origin. The majority of the population of Epirus is Greek and it has always been Greek. It has been Greek since antiquity and continues to be Greek until this very day.

During the era of Ali Pasha and the Souliotes, there was most definitely a notion of an Albanian Ethnogenesis. You can't claim that people fighting for the "Greek Cause" had no idea of Albanian Tribes, Albanian Language, and the Albanian Territories.

Who are the "large amount of authors" that consider them Albanian? Let's talk about your Authors and Sources. I keep putting up real sources and you respond with the same talking points.

During the Ottoman Empire, the Lingua Franca in Epirus was basically Arvanitika. Greeks had to learn how to speak Albanian and pretended to be Albanian to survive being robbed and killed by Albanians or murdered/kidnapped by the Turks. They're countless stories in the historical records on these facts. This has nothing to do with Albanian Origin. Albanian Origin is the spin Albanians put on Wikipedia-- but on Wikipedia talk, it's being debated due to incorrect assertions made from Sources written in Greek because these people translate it incorrectly.

[Epirus DNA]

[kefalonitis]

Either way they "became" greek (???) later on.

From 7th century BC until the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-47 the albanian territory was under Greek and Roman dominance,with some Bulgarian rule in the meantime too.
Obviously a part of the population there was politically alligned to Constantinople and partially hellenized(both culturaly and geneticaly).
The identity of Arvanites is certainly not a modern construct.I've mentioned this in a previous post but you ignored it.

[Epirus DNA]

From 7th century BC until the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-47 the albanian territory was under Greek and Roman dominance,with some Bulgarian rule in the meantime too.
Obviously a part of the population there was politically alligned to Constantinople and partially hellenized(both culturaly and geneticaly).
The identity of Arvanites is certainly not a modern construct.I've mentioned this in a previous post but you ignored it.

Adding to this -- the identity of Arvanites is not so clear when we are talking about the aftermath of the Greek Revolution all the way up to the present. Yes, it is clear that some Arvanites are of Albanian Origin and identify as such. On the other hand, you have Ethnic Greeks who were dubbed Arvanites and considered Albanian because they were either Bi-Lingual or are from Epirus.

[Skerdilaid]

Epirus DNA is a low IQ Grrk who claims Sulioti descent maternally. Oh the irony

So pointless discussing such matters with him. Just let him parade around like the moron he is, guys.

[Epirus DNA]

Epirus DNA is a low IQ Grrk who claims Sulioti descent maternally. Oh the irony

So pointless discussing such matters with him. Just let him parade around like the moron he is, guys.

Maternally...?

Nice Turbin, Turko

[Epirus DNA]

Epirus DNA is a low IQ Grrk who claims Sulioti descent maternally. Oh the irony

So pointless discussing such matters with him. Just let him parade around like the moron he is, guys.

My name is skrillexdaddy, the Turko-Albo with a Turbin and leader of TA Albo’s hahah just like the Albo’s... holding the cock of a Turk