Do -you- believe in Multiculturalism?

[rhiannon]

Well, I haven't seen you attacking anyone or employing ad hominems at all, really.

I was more referring to debates that follow this course: Byrne makes a point--->random poster makes a counterpoint--->Byrne shuts down, and retreats behind the defense of "that's my opinion, so there".

I'm not picking on you (or stalking you! hehe, I've just been lurking here while). I'm only wondering whether what I'm noticing is some kind of subconscious Pavlovian reaction to politically incorrect ideas. It's almost as though your subconscious is not allowing you to even entertain notions that you've been brought up to believe are 'racist' or 'offensive' in nature.

I mean no offense, and these are just my observations (through a text-based medium, no less, and so they could well be wrong). It just seems as though there's that line that you won't cross, even mentally, even for a moment, despite any amount of evidence suggesting that you should. I've seen similar reactions to similarly un-PC ideas in friends and family, and it took them a long, long time to overcome their programming. (Some never did.)

Now, does any of that makes sense whatsoever?

I like you already Yes, some of what you say makes sense. I suffer from frustration, at times, because sometimes it is just hard to put into words what I am trying to say. Couple that with the fact I am not a good typist and basically find myself wanting to shoot the keyboard more often than not.....might explain why I appear to shut down.

In person, these debates would be awesome. Nuance, subtlety, and body language are all tools by which help communicate one's message. But, obviously, that is not going to happen.

Text media is the best we can hope for.

I must admit.....some debates make me wish I could do this:

(oh CRAP, I'm on the wrong computer dammit, and my laptop with the right pic is in the shop!!!)

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!

[Jon Snow]

I like you already Yes, some of what you say makes sense. I suffer from frustration, at times, because sometimes it is just hard to put into words what I am trying to say. Couple that with the fact I am not a good typist and basically find myself wanting to shoot the keyboard more often than not.....might explain why I appear to shut down.

In person, these debates would be awesome. Nuance, subtlety, and body language are all tools by which help communicate one's message. But, obviously, that is not going to happen.

Text media is the best we can hope for.

I must admit.....some debates make me wish I could do this:

(oh CRAP, I'm on the wrong computer dammit, and my laptop with the right pic is in the shop!!!)

Bwahahahahahahahahaha!!

Fair.

Oh, and to get on topic:

Multiculturalism is an ideology doomed to failure, IMO. It is thoroughly unnatural, and not sustainable on any level, at least in the long-term.

[007]

What's the facepalm for?

The double facepalm is because you started talking about preconceived notions being disproved and then used another preconceived notion of yours as an example.

Are you saying that the British do not tend to judge each other on the basis of class; or rather, accent, because it is your accent that gives away your class of birth?

No more so than Americans or Canadians do. Do doctors and lawyers hang out with mechanics and farmers where you live?

My God. My family are heavily influenced by British culture largely because they are all of British stock, and if there is anything I've ever heard over the years, it is that NO one does snobbery as well as the British do.

My grandfather rented a farm from a certain Lord for many years. The Lord was unfailingly polite and cordial whenever he spoke to my grandfather, and he was eminently fair to deal with. The stereotype of a snooty upperclass twit is just a stereotype

Accents are the means by which a person cannot escape their roots, regardless of how wealthy they end up becoming later in life.

I really don't know whether a self-made millionaire would be welcomed into upperclass society and invited to their country homes like an old schoolmate from Eton. I rather doubt they would be treated much differently than a self-made millionaire in the States who didn't attend an Ivy league school would be treated by that clique if he tried to join it.

I mean, c'mon! You guys have ROYALS for God's sake! There is nothing truly special or better about them. Royalty is, at best, an arbitrary distinction.

I don't know anybody who thinks the Royals are better or more worthy than ordinary people. I wouldn't mind a fraction of their money but I wouldn't want their job.

If I am totally wrong, then explain why these are the images given of the Brits?

There are stereotypes about every group you can name. Sometimes they have a grain of truth to them and sometimes they are completely off base.

I like the British in so many ways, just so you understand. None of what I said is meant as a put down at all. If you read my reply and saw the context in which I made my reply, you would understand.

I don't blame you for that. Shows you have good taste and discernment.

[rhiannon]

The double facepalm is because you started talking about preconceived notions being disproved and then used another preconceived notion of yours as an example.

Perhaps I do not fully understand the proper context in which the *fail* is supposed to be used. I do believe this was an honest misunderstanding of intent...on both our parts....which is not that surprising on the internet. So, no issues here

No more so than Americans or Canadians do. Do doctors and lawyers hang out with mechanics and farmers where you live? Some do....but as a rule....they don't. I should know, having gone to medical school and listened to the things my classmates used to talk about....lol

My grandfather rented a farm from a certain Lord for many years. The Lord was unfailingly polite and cordial whenever he spoke to my grandfather, and he was eminently fair to deal with. The stereotype of a snooty upperclass twit is just a stereotype Good to hear. I always like it when stereotypes are dispelled!

I really don't know whether a self-made millionaire would be welcomed into upperclass society and invited to their country homes like an old schoolmate from Eton. I rather doubt they would be treated much differently than a self-made millionaire in the States who didn't attend an Ivy league school would be treated by that clique if he tried to join it. I believe you are probably correct in your assessment

I don't know anybody who thinks the Royals are better or more worthy than ordinary people. I wouldn't mind a fraction of their money but I wouldn't want their job. You and me both!

There are stereotypes about every group you can name. Sometimes they have a grain of truth to them and sometimes they are completely off base.

Yes, I agree with you once again.

I don't blame you for that. Shows you have good taste and discernment.
Thank you very much.

[Bridie]

No more so than Americans or Canadians do. Do doctors and lawyers hang out with mechanics and farmers where you live?

Yeah, I noticed while in the US and Canada that these countries seem to have deeply ingrained social class systems. I was quite surprised by it actually. (Australia, in comparison, is something different altogether.)

I still think that the class systems in North America cannot be compared to that of the UK though.

[Logan]

A bit like that 'imperialist' remark that came out of nowhere. Nationalists worth their salt reject colonial expansion as a great danger to the national well being, given that it almost always leads to a dilution of the national identity in favour of a more inclusive imperial one.

Looking backwards is not too difficult. Though there are indeed some problems that can be attributed to that particular period, I would think the positive to be much more in evidence.

I'm not picking on you (or stalking you! hehe, I've just been lurking here while). I'm only wondering whether what I'm noticing is some kind of subconscious Pavlovian reaction to politically incorrect ideas. It's almost as though your subconscious is not allowing you to even entertain notions that you've been brought up to believe are 'racist' or 'offensive' in nature...

Now, does any of that makes sense whatsoever?

An psychoanalytic perspective? Intrusive, and not impressive.

Fair.

Oh, and to get on topic:

Multiculturalism is an ideology doomed to failure, IMO. It is thoroughly unnatural, and not sustainable on any level, at least in the long-term.

It has worked in Britian, and elsewhere for centuries. Worked, not perfectly but worked. The Arabian, African etc... are very much different, and do present particular problems.

[007]

Yeah, I noticed while in the US and Canada that these countries seem to have deeply ingrained social class systems. I was quite surprised by it actually. (Australia, in comparison, is something different altogether.)

I still think that the class systems in North America cannot be compared to that of the UK though.

Why, would an Aussie doctor hang out in the local blue collar pub rather than hanging out with his colleagues?

[Bridie]

Why, would an Aussie doctor hang out in the local blue collar pub rather than hanging out with his colleagues?

You get all sorts in the pubs here. It's not unusual for those with professional occupations to go to a pub. We don't have segregated pubs for classes. (In fact, we don't even really have classes as they're known in much of the rest of the world, I've come to realise.)

And why would a Dr only want to hang out with his work colleagues anyway? That would surely get a bit dull. I have a friend whose boyfriend is a Dr (radiologist) and his closest mate is a roof tiler. Do you see that as odd?

[The Lawspeaker]

No. It sounds more like a healthy democratic society.

[007]

You get all sorts in the pubs here. It's not unusual for those with professional occupations to go to a pub. We don't have segregated pubs for classes. (In fact, we don't even really have classes as they're known in much of the rest of the world, I've come to realise.)

Well, we don't have segregated pubs, either, but people tend to live in neighbourhoods of people more or less like themselves so the local pubs are going to be mostly patronized by the same group. It's more a function of income than social class, really. I don't eat at fancy restaurants because I'm a cheapskate and think paying exorbitant prices to eat snails is absurd.

And why would a Dr only want to hang out with his work colleagues anyway? That would surely get a bit dull. I have a friend whose boyfriend is a Dr (radiologist) and his closest mate is a roof tiler. Do you see that as odd?

Well, if a doctor walked into a bluecollar bar in Alberta nobody would bat an eyelid or treat him any differently than anyone else but if it's not a neighborhood pub he's not likely to be going by himself. So it's back to him being more likely to meet other doctors socially than farmers or oil rig workers. When he gets off work at the local clinic or hospital it's the other doctors he's most likely going to invite to join him for a beer on the way home. Or maybe one of the nurses
I don't have any doctors as mates because I don't meet them socially, instead I know lots of farmers. Some are wealthy but most aren't. They like to get together and talk about the weather and the price of wheat and what a mess the politicians are making of the country. A doctor would be welcome to join them but would probably be bored out of his gourd inside five minutes. For their part the farmers wouldn't be overly interested in the size of the carbuncle on some old biddy's ass that the quack had to lance that day.