Catalan symbols discussion

[Comte Arnau]

Same methods would be really suitable for Catalonia also.

Then others say that it's me who derails all threads into Catalan issues.

But... seriously, wtf?

[antonio]

Then others say that it's me who derails all threads into Catalan issues.

But... seriously, wtf?

Simply I cant help for considering you a kind of authorized representative of Catalonia.

[Comte Arnau]

CA: just an unoffensive digression about the land were I incidentaly am living in.

K, no problem. Btw, I've said the Catalan flag is older to all except for the Danish. I correct myself, the senyera is older than the Dannebrog.

[El Palleter]

It's nice, but not as good as the one I propose Spain adopts.

Let me guess... the Dysfunctional Republic of Benidorm!

K, no problem. Btw, I've said the Catalan flag is older to all except for the Danish. I correct myself, the senyera is older than the Dannebrog.

It's not even Catalan originally, but Aragonese. Catalonia's was Saint George's Cross.

Anyway, here's a flag reality check

[antonio]

It's not even Catalan originally, but Aragonese. Catalonia's was Saint George's Cross.

About first point, I have to say that, at least, Catalonian myth is very moving, and although of course it lose against historical evidence, for the sake of concorde let's set a tie.

At second one I would be more beligerant (curiously stablished by yours as a kind of concesion from your not-precisally Catalonian bias). Just remember Saint George helped us winning Huesca to the Moors, my family still had a fair amount of acres at no-mans land near Mount-Aragon (of course a straight reward from King), anycase I guess even before:



Saint George flag with four Moors heads inside representing old Aragon county and distinguish it from Sobrarbe and Ribagorza ones. Clear as water.

[El Palleter]

About first point [...]

At second one [...]

http://mitesimentides.wordpress.com/...som-una-nacio/

But let's keep this discussion out of this thread.

[Comte Arnau]

It's not even Catalan originally, but Aragonese. Catalonia's was Saint George's Cross.

Anyway, here's a flag reality check

http://mitesimentides.wordpress.com/...som-una-nacio/

But let's keep this discussion out of this thread.

Lol, yeah. Shit on the Catalans but then let's hush and go on with the thread, right? I guess Spaniards can't help being Spaniards.

Really, I expected much more from you than using a Catalanophobe's blog as a serious source. There are more 'serious' anti-Catalan readings out there that at least do it in an elegant way. Funny to see so many guys making such efforts to bash the Catalan symbols, as if the symbols of any other nation on Earth weren't just as artificial or more. Symbols are that, symbols. And personally, if it's about legendary origins, I prefer Tomich's story of Otger Cataló and the 9 Knights, which is more than a century earlier to that of Wilfred the Hairy.

Seriously, next time your Spanish nature forces you to bash the Catalans -which will likely be soon-, do it more properly and not believing stupid things like that of the origin of the flag being in the Pope colours, a theory that hardly has any grounds and that most serious Aragonese experts discard or mistrust. The true fact is that the earliest indiscutible appearance of the flag is in the personal seal of the Catalan count Ramon Berenguer IV, in September 2, 1150, in which he can be seen with the four bars on his shield. Period. Berenguer's was one among the first seals in Europe at a time when heraldry was right at its starting point and these emblems were actually used for a family line. It is quite revealing that important historian sources of the 1300's thought it was the Aragonese who had changed their symbol ("Catalan nationalist propaganda" of the 14th century? ). The Aragonese Chronicle of Saint John of La Penya says of Alfonso II: "he changed the sign of Aragon for the bars". The Armorial d'Urfé (1380) says: "The King of Aragon, in gold and three red bars, which is the sign of the Count of Catalonia (...) The Kingdom of Aragon (having had as a sign) a silver cross on an azure background". Which is, as you know, the sign of Old Aragon, the Arista's Cross. The Catalan Courts of 1396, presided by queen Maria de Luna, dispose: "Ships must not show flags or signs other than those of the County of Barcelona, that is, only yellow and red bars." Three years later they mention again the "senyal reial de comte de Barchinona". And Martin the Humane says in 1406 at the Courts celebrated at Perpignan, today "French Catalonia": "Son, I give thee our old flag of the Principality of Cathalonia (...), our so-called Royal Flag". I guess all these sources from the 14th century must have been influenced by the Catalan nationalism of the 20th century.

Btw, the second Catalan County in importance, that of Urgell, head of the Western Catalans, had this chess-like one:



So if anything, the emblem of the whole Catalonia should be closer to these:



As for Aragon, just think about one thing. If the four bars had been a symbol of the Aragonese from the very beginning, why attributing so much importance through the years to the Cross of Arista and the Cross of Alcoraz with the Moor heads? You mention the Saint George cross as being the real Catalan one. Do you know that some right-winged Aragonese proposed St George's cross as the flag of Aragon back in the 70's, to make a difference from that of Catalonia?

St George is important for both. Per Sant Jordi i Aragó! Both the four bars and St George's cross are just as Catalan as Aragonese. St George was and is our patron, we are simply not subjects of the Castilian Saint James, of that Santiago y cierra España. Santiago may close Spain, but St George will protect Aragon/Catalonia. Yes, Aragon should be proud of the three.



Anyway, the real thing is that the four bars were a royal symbol, to be used by the king and its heirs, not a territorial one, so the geniuses on both sides who attribute its origin to the 'territories' of Aragon or Catalonia are simply wrong, because this kind of identification will come later. Therefore, since the official use of this symbol is to represent the King of Aragon and Count/Prince of Barcelona (the Crown), the flag of the four bars -the Royal Senyera/Senyal- is both Catalan and Aragonese. That is all. (Although I'm sure that attempts from the Spaniards to continue the divide et impera method will follow. Apparently seeing the four Eastern territories sharing the same historical flag kind of give some of you a sort of hives. )

As for Spain, change that modern cheap reduced copy of our bars of blood and use either the great Victory Cross, from as old as 908, or recover that great symbol that was the Lion, the first official heraldic symbol in the Peninsula (1135), when Leon was caput Hispaniae for the Leonese, Castilians, Asturians and Galicians. Both would be great and much more beautiful than that insipid rojigualda.


Now, if the mods would like to save Aussies from reading more of this anti-Cat propaganda, just split the thread please. I hope you understand that I just couldn't stay quiet.

[antonio]

About these issues I had to this day clear just two things:

1) The Aragonese Saint George flag is not imported from Catalonia.

2) There're too much haters of Catalonia in Aragon (Aragonese or not), Valencia and Spain as a whole trying to bash Catalonian history. I must concede they can have a percentage of true (dont know exactly), but the wrong percentage includes so miserable lies (certain issues like Ribagorzan sacred art would require some day a thread on their own) that I tend to think former one is more scarce than abundant.

[antonio]

About these issues I had to this day clear just two things:

1) The Aragonese Saint George flag is not imported from Catalonia.

2) There're too much haters of Catalonia in Aragon (Aragonese or not), Valencia and Spain as a whole trying to bash Catalonian history. I must concede they can have a percentage of true (dont know exactly), but the wrong percentage includes so miserable lies (certain issues like Ribagorzan sacred art would require some day a thread on their own) that I tend to think former one is more scarce than abundant.

Ps. And indeed this topic should be moved to another thread.