Frisians: how Anglo-Saxons looked like before mixing with Celts

[PaleoEuropean]

Frisians are part Celt

[Grace O'Malley]

My mom is nothing but a Frisian masquerading as an Irish woman according to Eurogenes K15
Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 2.24
2 Irish 3.72
3 Danish 3.72
4 West_Scottish 4.2
5 Southeast_English 4.51
6 North_German 4.62
7 Southwest_English 5.26
8 Orcadian 5.35
9 Norwegian 5.49
10 Swedish 6.13
11 West_Norwegian 6.31
12 South_Dutch 8.34
13 West_German 8.51
14 North_Swedish 9.76
15 East_German 12.21
16 French 12.87
17 Southwest_Finnish 14.51
18 Hungarian 16.74
19 Austrian 16.8
20 Finnish 17.72

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.1% North_Dutch + 2.9% French_Basque @ 2.07
2 96.5% North_Dutch + 3.5% Southwest_French @ 2.08
3 65.2% Irish + 34.8% Swedish @ 2.09
4 97.1% North_Dutch + 2.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.14
5 98.7% North_Dutch + 1.3% Sardinian @ 2.14
6 97.5% North_Dutch + 2.5% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.15
7 99.5% North_Dutch + 0.5% Karitiana @ 2.16
8 97.3% North_Dutch + 2.7% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.16
9 95.2% North_Dutch + 4.8% East_German @ 2.16
10 99.5% North_Dutch + 0.5% Mayan @ 2.16
11 97.6% North_Dutch + 2.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.16
12 99.5% North_Dutch + 0.5% Pima @ 2.17
13 99.5% North_Dutch + 0.5% Anzick-1 @ 2.17
14 97.2% North_Dutch + 2.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.17
15 98.1% North_Dutch + 1.9% Lithuanian @ 2.17
16 97.9% North_Dutch + 2.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.17
17 89.5% North_Dutch + 10.5% Southwest_English @ 2.17
18 84.5% North_Dutch + 15.5% Irish @ 2.17
19 97.8% North_Dutch + 2.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.17
20 97.6% North_Dutch + 2.4% Croatian @ 2.18

This is my K13 which also has North Dutch as my no 1 pop.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 52.04
2 Baltic 25.27
3 West_Med 9.81
4 West_Asian 7.25
5 East_Med 1.77
6 Red_Sea 1.5
7 Amerindian 1.38
8 Siberian 0.75
9 Oceanian 0.24

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.04
2 Irish 3.1
3 Norwegian 3.6
4 West_Scottish 3.61
5 Orcadian 3.82
6 Danish 3.86
7 North_German 5.45
8 Southeast_English 6.09
9 Southwest_English 6.26
10 Swedish 6.5
11 South_Dutch 10.22
12 West_German 11.04
13 North_Swedish 12.82
14 Austrian 15.29
15 East_German 15.45
16 French 15.89
17 Hungarian 19.56
18 Southwest_Finnish 21.09
19 Spanish_Cataluna 23.25
20 South_Polish 24.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 57.1% Irish + 42.9% Norwegian @ 2.28
2 50.1% Norwegian + 49.9% West_Scottish @ 2.33
3 77.2% Irish + 22.8% Swedish @ 2.54
4 51.6% North_Dutch + 48.4% Irish @ 2.56
5 70.2% West_Scottish + 29.8% Swedish @ 2.58
6 61.6% North_Dutch + 38.4% West_Scottish @ 2.6
7 88.2% Irish + 11.8% North_Swedish @ 2.61
8 94.4% Irish + 5.6% Finnish @ 2.67
9 94.5% Irish + 5.5% La_Brana-1 @ 2.68
10 93.4% Irish + 6.6% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.72
11 95.3% Irish + 4.7% East_Finnish @ 2.72
12 76.2% Irish + 23.8% North_German @ 2.72
13 66.7% West_Scottish + 33.3% North_German @ 2.74
14 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Chuvash @ 2.74
15 84.2% West_Scottish + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 2.75
16 65.5% Irish + 34.5% Danish @ 2.75
17 92% West_Scottish + 8% Finnish @ 2.77
18 97.1% Irish + 2.9% Mari @ 2.78
19 95.4% Irish + 4.6% Estonian @ 2.79
20 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Erzya @ 2.8

All Northwestern European populations are close. Some of the phenotype differences could be due to founder effect because some of these populations were more isolated than populations like the Germans etc especially the periphery populations. There are obviously some differences like ydna but autosomally there are fairly similar. I'm still waiting to find out if L51 was part of Corded Ware like Davidski is suggesting. I would hope some study will be able to nut this out in the future vis-à-vis the Celtic vs Germanic question. Whatever the case Northwestern Europeans whether they be "Celtic" or "Germanic" are closer to each other.

I would like studies on IBD done and also ancient genomes. I would like to see what has happened with these populations and some explanation regarding any similarities and differences. I can't wait until May to see the Cassidy study.

[Grace O'Malley]

A bit OT but the Aran jumper was created by Aran islanders with families having their own unique design. This was a way to identify fishermen who were drowned at sea. Those Aran Islanders were a hardy bunch.

[Daco Celtic]

This is my K13 which also has North Dutch as my no 1 pop.

All Northwestern European populations are close. Some of the phenotype differences could be due to founder effect because some of these populations were more isolated than populations like the Germans etc especially the periphery populations. There are obviously some differences like ydna but autosomally there are fairly similar. I'm still waiting to find out if L51 was part of Corded Ware like Davidski is suggesting. I would hope some study will be able to nut this out in the future vis-à-vis the Celtic vs Germanic question. Whatever the case Northwestern Europeans whether they be "Celtic" or "Germanic" are closer to each other.

I would like studies on IBD done and also ancient genomes. I would like to see what has happened with these populations and some explanation regarding any similarities and differences. I can't wait until May to see the Cassidy study.

I jest but my mom actually got Irish on K13. Seems like Dutch and Danish are particularly close to the British Isles on Eurogene calculators. Seems consistent with migrations.

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 1.64
2 Orcadian 1.88
3 West_Scottish 2.32
4 North_Dutch 2.73
5 Danish 3.55

[Grace O'Malley]

I jest but my mom actually got Irish on K13. Seems like Dutch and Danish are particularly close to the British Isles on Eurogene calculators.

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 1.64
2 Orcadian 1.88
3 West_Scottish 2.32
4 North_Dutch 2.73
5 Danish 3.55

On Gedmatch cals like Eurogenes the Irish are closer to North Dutch and Scandinavian populations while the English are closer to South Dutch and Belgians. I don't know if this is because of higher Steppe in some populations like the Irish and North Dutch. Possibly someone like Token could be forthcoming with an explanation? It looks like Gedmatch is having a site maintenance at the minute so I can't post my K15 but I noticed that on K13 North Dutch is my no 1 and on K15 my no 1 is Irish although my brother has the opposite result with K13 being Irish and his K13 being more Scandinavian leaning.

[Grace O'Malley]

Frisians are part Celt

In what way?

[Creoda]

On Gedmatch cals like Eurogenes the Irish are closer to North Dutch and Scandinavian populations while the English are closer to South Dutch and Belgians. I don't know if this is because of higher Steppe in some populations like the Irish and North Dutch. Possibly someone like Token could be forthcoming with an explanation? It looks like Gedmatch is having a site maintenance at the minute so I can't post my K15 but I noticed that on K13 North Dutch is my no 1 and on K15 my no 1 is Irish although my brother has the opposite result with K13 being Irish and his K13 being more Scandinavian leaning.

I think it's more Southern English that are closer to South Dutch, my mother gets North Dutch as first population in both K13 and K15

K13

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 3.43
2 Danish 3.45
3 Orcadian 3.46
4 Irish 3.8
5 Southeast_English 3.91
6 North_German 4.03
7 West_Scottish 4.67
8 Southwest_English 4.84
9 Norwegian 5.5
10 South_Dutch 6.57
11 Swedish 7.27
12 West_German 7.5
13 Austrian 12.18
14 French 12.48
15 East_German 12.52
16 North_Swedish 13.21
17 Hungarian 16.86
18 Spanish_Cataluna 19.78
19 Southwest_French 20.92
20 Southwest_Finnish 20.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 86.8% Irish + 13.2% Serbian @ 1.78
2 88.4% Irish + 11.6% Romanian @ 1.81
3 89.5% Irish + 10.5% Bulgarian @ 1.83
4 78.3% Irish + 21.7% Austrian @ 1.83
5 87.7% Irish + 12.3% Moldavian @ 1.85
6 55.7% North_German + 44.3% Southwest_English @ 1.93
7 83.7% Irish + 16.3% Hungarian @ 1.93
8 84.8% West_Scottish + 15.2% Moldavian @ 1.96
9 94.6% Orcadian + 5.4% Chechen @ 1.97
10 94.9% Orcadian + 5.1% Adygei @ 1.98

K15

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Dutch 4.25
2 Danish 4.43
3 Southwest_English 4.59
4 Orcadian 4.64
5 Southeast_English 4.83
6 West_Scottish 5.15
7 Irish 5.51
8 Norwegian 6.08
9 North_German 6.2
10 West_Norwegian 6.79
11 West_German 7.79
12 South_Dutch 7.83
13 Swedish 7.88
14 North_Swedish 10.38
15 French 12.02
16 East_German 12.8
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.75
18 Hungarian 17.56
19 Austrian 17.58
20 Finnish 18.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.1% Orcadian + 22.9% East_German @ 2.78
2 86.3% Orcadian + 13.7% Moldavian @ 2.85
3 60.3% Southwest_English + 39.7% Norwegian @ 2.99
4 86.2% Orcadian + 13.8% Croatian @ 3.02
5 87.1% Orcadian + 12.9% Ukrainian @ 3.07
6 83.4% Orcadian + 16.6% Hungarian @ 3.13
7 64.2% Southwest_English + 35.8% West_Norwegian @ 3.13
8 87.2% Orcadian + 12.8% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.14
9 90.5% Orcadian + 9.5% Erzya @ 3.17
10 87% Orcadian + 13% South_Polish @ 3.17

I suspect the closeness of Insular Celts and North Dutch in these calculators is more to do with having relatively little post Bronze Age Southern influence (from Continental Celts, Romans or French), compared to Southern English, South Dutch, West Germans etc.

[Synapsid]

These are Aran Islanders from off the coast of Galway. So are they a good proxy for Celts? These are old pictures and the people were fairly isolated. Interesting to compare with the Frisians. Do people think the Insular Celts were a drastically different population than the Anglo-Saxons?

More representative of Bell Beakers from Bronze age Netherlands, with some low level Halstatt culture admixture (who largely decent from the Corded Ware, jut like British Island Beaker folks, but may have small different in EEF/Neolithic levels)

[Zroota]

I can see that Frisians seem to be very blonde, ruddy and/or fair-skinned.

Now how do or did pure Celtic people look though? Any examples?

[Synapsid]

I can see that Frisians seem to be very blonde, ruddy and/or fair-skinned.

Now how do or did pure Celtic people look though? Any examples?

English people are blonde, ruddy and/or fair-skinned. They don't differ much from Frisians in pigmentation. Ocadians are more 'celtic' than English (whatever that means), yet have the palest kin tone on earth, followed the Irish. All West Germanic/North Germanic and NW European Celts are the descendants of the Western off-shoot of the Corded Ware that mixed with WHG rich Globular amphora/TRB/South Scando Farmers anyways