Frisians: how Anglo-Saxons looked like before mixing with Celts

[Zroota]

English people are blonde, ruddy and/or fair-skinned. They don't differ much from Frisians in pigmentation. Ocadians are more 'celtic' than English (whatever that means), yet have the palest kin tone on earth, followed the Irish. All West Germanic/North Germanic and NW European Celts are the descendants of the Western off-shoot of the Corded Ware that mixed with WHG rich Globular amphora/TRB/South Scando Farmers anyways

I know English people have many blonde and ruddy types among them. Australia has a lot of these Keltic Nordic types (Cate Blanchett, Nicole Kidman, Chris Hemsworth, etc).

I just thought this thread made it seem like Celtics looked different compared to Frisian, perhaps 'less' blonder? So I wanted to know how Celtics look in comparison to the original Anglo-Saxons...

[Grace O'Malley]

English people are blonde, ruddy and/or fair-skinned. They don't differ much from Frisians in pigmentation. Ocadians are more 'celtic' than English (whatever that means), yet have the palest kin tone on earth, followed the Irish. All West Germanic/North Germanic and NW European Celts are the descendants of the Western off-shoot of the Corded Ware that mixed with WHG rich Globular amphora/TRB/South Scando Farmers anyways

I think your explanation is not far off the mark and this seems to be what genetics are showing. Orcadians have the highest amount of Norwegian admixture after the Shetlands. It is most probably comparable to the amount of Anglo-Saxon in the English. Creoda might know a bit more about this? My question would be how much Norse/Anglo-Saxon the Isles populations have? Is the similarity with the Insular Celts down to Bronze Age similarity or is it a combination of both admixture and Bronze Age genetics? The problem is that these populations are similar due to Bronze Age genetics. I know the English have Anglo-Saxon blood but I'd like to know how much the Norse and other populations influenced the Insular Celts. I'd also like to know if there was Celts from mainland Europe that came to the Isles and how much these influenced populations genetics.

[Kamal900]

They look a lot the Dutch which the ancient Anglo-Saxons genetically cluster the closest to among other continental Germanic peoples like the Frisians and so on. Yeah, these people look very Germanic indeed. The thing is that the Frisians are descendants of the Anglo-Saxons that stayed in Friesland and becoming the modern day Frisians while the rest went to Britain and becoming the English.

[Creoda]

I know English people have many blonde and ruddy types among them. Australia has a lot of these Keltic Nordic types (Cate Blanchett, Nicole Kidman, Chris Hemsworth, etc).

I just thought this thread made it seem like Celtics looked different compared to Frisian, perhaps 'less' blonder? So I wanted to know how Celtics look in comparison to the original Anglo-Saxons...

Ignoring the fact that Celtic peoples were very diverse and spread across Europe, the Celtic Britons would have looked like modern Welsh, Cornish and English from the Western and Northern fringes, so darker haired and eyed, but just as pale and ruddy if not more.

Caledonians/Picts in the North were by ancient accounts lighter and closer looking to contemporary Germanics.

[Grace O'Malley]

Ignoring the fact that Celtic peoples were very diverse and spread across Europe, the Celtic Britons would have looked like modern Welsh, Cornish and English from the Western and Northern fringes, so darker haired and eyed, but just as pale and ruddy if not more.

I don't think they would have been darker eyed. Modern Irish are majority blue eyed for example. I'm not sure whether you are making a distinction between the Gaels and the Britons because you are using the Welsh and Cornish?

[dududud]

Soon we will have a study on the genetics of the French with old samples of French Gaulish, which should prove that the native French are indeed from these Gaulish, and that "celticity" is not only the preserve of Anglo-Saxons or other people.


My father does not look like these people and he is very Gaulish, genetically and phenotypically.

[Creoda]

I don't think they would have been darker eyed. Modern Irish are majority blue eyed for example. I'm not sure whether you are making a distinction between the Gaels and the Britons because you are using the Welsh and Cornish?

Yes, I'm making that distinction between Gaels and Southern Britons, as Wales and SW England are the darkest eyed parts of the British Isles from the (admittedly sketchy) estimates I've seen, whereas Ireland and Scotland are the lightest eyed.

[Synapsid]

Ignoring the fact that Celtic peoples were very diverse and spread across Europe, the Celtic Britons would have looked like modern Welsh, Cornish and English from the Western and Northern fringes, so darker haired and eyed, but just as pale and ruddy if not more.

Caledonians/Picts in the North were by ancient accounts lighter and closer looking to contemporary Germanics.

That does not make sense. Darker haired, possibly yes, but darker eyes? The people with the most light eyes on the isles are the Irish. Also, its not the darkness of hair that sets the difference of Britons from the Anglo-Saxons/Ingvaeonic, but the variety of hair colours that Celts had when compared to Germanics. Red hair, for examples, is more common in Celtic fringes when compared to even N. Germanics. Note, When I say Celts, I mean Beaker derived Brits, not Gauls, or Southern German Celts or Celtiberians, all which are different from Native Britons.

[Synapsid]

I think your explanation is not far off the mark and this seems to be what genetics are showing. Orcadians have the highest amount of Norwegian admixture after the Shetlands. It is most probably comparable to the amount of Anglo-Saxon in the English. Creoda might know a bit more about this? My question would be how much Norse/Anglo-Saxon the Isles populations have? Is the similarity with the Insular Celts down to Bronze Age similarity or is it a combination of both admixture and Bronze Age genetics? The problem is that these populations are similar due to Bronze Age genetics. I know the English have Anglo-Saxon blood but I'd like to know how much the Norse and other populations influenced the Insular Celts. I'd also like to know if there was Celts from mainland Europe that came to the Isles and how much these influenced populations genetics.

I think 60%-70% England_IA (Britons) and 40%-30% Anglo-Saxon is an good ratio that is representative of the English outside East Anglia (once you leave out Norse admix, which complicates the situation). I think there was a small Gaulish input in Beaker brits during the Iron age that was associated with the arrival of Celtic languages, but it too small to change the bronze age genetics of Britian, so even after the arrival of Celtic Language in Britain, the people were overwhelmingly Bell Beaker derived. The closest Gaulish population to Pre-Germanic invasion Britain was the Belgae, who more north shifted than Gaul proper.

[Grace O'Malley]

Looking at Anglo-Saxons in the G25 these are their closest modern day populations.

I'm using Poi's runner for this because it has all of the samples loaded.

1 England_Saxon:Average Norwegian_Averaged Averaged 1.486
2 England_Saxon:Average Icelandic_Averaged Averaged 1.488
8 England_Saxon:Average Dutch_Averaged Averaged 1.828
10 England_Saxon:Average Irish_Averaged Averaged 1.836
11 England_Saxon:Average Scottish_Averaged Averaged 1.853
22 England_Saxon:Average Orcadian_Averaged Averaged 2.01
23 England_Saxon:Average Shetlandic_Averaged Averaged 2.018
32 England_Saxon:Average Swedish_Averaged Averaged 2.073
37 England_Saxon:Average English_Averaged Averaged 2.112
40 England_Saxon:Average Welsh_Averaged Averaged 2.138
68 England_Saxon:Average English_Cornwall_Averaged Averaged 2.394

Why are Irish closer than the English on this? The only logical explanation I can come up with is the higher Steppe that the Irish have? Another example to show that Insular Celts and Anglo-Saxons were quite similar genetically anyway.

Possibly you would need more than distances to sort this stuff out. Anyway looking at this for a long time now and I have come to the conclusion that being Celtic is more a cultural and language question than genetics or has someone else got a different exclamation? I think ultimately it all goes back to those Steppe migrations and the similarity of these populations to begin with.